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 Asura.Failaras
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By Asura.Failaras 2014-08-19 23:59:40
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Which should we go with, a program that is modeled to be able to predict which gear will be better or "My friend outparsed me with this set".
 Cerberus.Reiden
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By Cerberus.Reiden 2014-08-20 00:26:24
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Use what you feel is best for you, guides are there as a baseline for you to tweak to your preferences.
 Fenrir.Motenten
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By Fenrir.Motenten 2014-08-20 00:36:04
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Cerberus.Reiden said: »
I have used spreadsheets for mnk in the past until my friend proved to me over and over how a full crit set on tojil runs will always beat w/e a spreadsheet comes up with. So i decided to go that route and only 2 mnks outparse me now (my friend and a vere mnk). Not that there are many good mnks left but could probably count them using 2 hands.

I'd be interested in how that was 'proven'. Were you analyzing the individual details of the parse? Avg damage per hit, average crit rate, net melee damage assuming equivalent delay (ie: factoring out time being stunned), average weaponskill rate, how many weaponskills were used in each damage phase (someone weaponskilling more during the first phase will bring their average down), time spent in DT sets, etc?
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 Bismarck.Inference
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By Bismarck.Inference 2014-08-20 00:36:27
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Spreadsheets are far from perfect, but they're pretty much the best we have. Parsing by itself is random due to pDIF distribution, among other variables like potential luck-based DA/TA/QA/SuperCrit WS during Delve 1.0 weakness phases. While these things would all be expected to even out over time, the required sample set of full boss fights to get even a semi-meaningful result is pretty large. Add in human error for each individual on a parse to parse basis and the abstract "skill level" of each player involved and its just a statistical nightmare.

Parses are good for : "Do I need accuracy?" "How lazy is my RNG" and "I want to show my epeen is bigger than my friend/enemy"

Additionally having to justify each potentially abstract gear choice(abstract being this instance of Otronif vs. Relic/AF, I expect trivial things like Uk'uxkaj+STR > Pticia to not need any justification due to just pure stat difference) would be horribly difficult to test, and just as difficult to sell the result to the community in a convincing manner.

TL;DR - Spreadsheets use math. Unless you're sitting on piles of parses that you can break down and properly interpret in a meaningful way and show without a doubt "Parse A was better than Parse B because of gear choice C and nothing else" your sets are pretty much personal preference/opinion based, which may be OK in some choices like "I WANT TO STACK STR AND CRIT FOR MY WEAPON SKILL".

Guides are meant to be as close to optimal choices as possible, adjusted by availability of gear to said player or what particular situation they may be planning to use the job in. If your goal is to post mediocre sets and have individuals tweak to what they think is better then there's not much need to update the front page at all.
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 Cerberus.Reiden
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By Cerberus.Reiden 2014-08-20 01:00:38
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Fenrir.Motenten said: »
Cerberus.Reiden said: »
I have used spreadsheets for mnk in the past until my friend proved to me over and over how a full crit set on tojil runs will always beat w/e a spreadsheet comes up with. So i decided to go that route and only 2 mnks outparse me now (my friend and a vere mnk). Not that there are many good mnks left but could probably count them using 2 hands.

I'd be interested in how that was 'proven'. Were you analyzing the individual details of the parse? Avg damage per hit, average crit rate, net melee damage assuming equivalent delay (ie: factoring out time being stunned), average weaponskill rate, how many weaponskills were used in each damage phase (someone weaponskilling more during the first phase will bring their average down), time spent in DT sets, etc?

I could send you all the parses i have saved over the past year and a half, since we do delve 2-3 times a week with 3-4 runs in a day. I just started doing 6 man recently, but it's mostly been 16+.

Bismarck.Inference said: »
TL;DR - Guides are meant to be as close to optimal choices as possible, adjusted by availability of gear to said player or what particular situation they may be planning to use the job in. If your goal is to post mediocre sets and have individuals tweak to what they think is better then there's not much need to update the front page at all.

Well my goal was just to help jinjo keep his sets up to date which in no way would have been my own personal sets that i prefer to use. I think me and llewelyn did a good job with the sam guide, just figured i'd help out.

Edit: Just to add, not to be cool or anything but i might be a bit bias towards parses. All we ever did in my ls was HNM > Parse, and now that HNM is gone we just do Event > Parse for the last 8 years. I do love motetenten spreadsheets still <3
 Carbuncle.Dagget
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By Carbuncle.Dagget 2014-08-20 01:21:18
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I have quite a few Glanzfaust sets (slightly outdated aka rings) for 5 different acc tiers / buff up/down dependant if you guys want them.
 Bismarck.Inference
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By Bismarck.Inference 2014-08-20 01:32:44
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If you want to use other people's already more optimized sets again, by all means have at it. I was under the impression you were trying to sell things like the set you posted.
 Ragnarok.Drewbles
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By Ragnarok.Drewbles 2014-08-20 10:24:54
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Let me break down this argument for y'all:

Because there are variables(monsters responses and player choices, specifically other players like support jobs) added to the constant (better called the math of how we do damage) whatever conclusion you come to can't be an exact number that we can visualize simply as we can a dps to give a value and therefore use
To decide what is superior.

Therefore if we ignore introducing any variables then we can come to a more exact conclusion because the data has not been tainted by those pesky variables...

The mistake with this argument is that unless your sets (and the gear you acquire because of this) are just being made to show each other, then those variables are going to be there. So honesty though there is no real ability to figure out what works best all the time spreadsheets won't always come out the best.

Even people who agree that in practice glanz shits on everything, dps spreadsheet says it doesn't, but it should. There is just way to much stuff in the game now to predict it all. I use spreadsheets everyday to get ideas but I always test everything before I swear by it.
 Carbuncle.Akivatoo
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By Carbuncle.Akivatoo 2014-08-20 10:29:27
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i totally agree all the last Inference reply about gears and all other analyse for MNK,
parse actually are the best way for know Accu and wsavg but that’s the only usefull use.

Make an update for MNK guide is a good idea cause many thing change since last update.
Maybe share u’r Gearswap file for R/E/M user can be usefull for specific set.

ItemSet 327443
ItemSet 327444
ItemSet 327445

ItemSet 327446

ItemSet 323596

actually i'm looking For Ascetic's Fury WS set and AM3 specific build, maybe old GLanz owner have suggestion for help me ?
 Asura.Backstab
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By Asura.Backstab 2014-08-20 10:31:50
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edit: nvm, irrelevant post since i somehow answered to a semi old post due to having a window open from yesterday or w/e.
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By pchan 2014-08-20 15:15:38
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Carbuncle.Akivatoo said: »
impetus up
eariings => brutal/trux
thaumas => tabtra +2 (high delay= martial arts good)
legs => hesycast
atheling=> rancor

the most important set nowadays is a capped dt one though
 Carbuncle.Akivatoo
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By Carbuncle.Akivatoo 2014-08-20 17:30:52
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for AM3 set you mine ?

(on impetus for all set= set_combine(sets.engaged {body="Tantra Cyclas +2",waist="Cetl Belt")

you think "Hes. Hose +1" beat "Otronif Brais +1(DA+2 PDT-4 MDT-3)" ?

"relic legs +1" + "artifac feet +1" combo give more tp ?
 Carbuncle.Dagget
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By Carbuncle.Dagget 2014-08-20 18:43:30
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Carbuncle.Akivatoo said: »

actually i'm looking For Ascetic's Fury WS set and AM3 specific build, maybe old GLanz owner have suggestion for help me ?

ammo="Tantra Tathlum",
head="Uk'uxkaj Cap",
body="Qaaxo Harness",
hands="Anchorite's Gloves +1",
legs={name="Otronif Brais +1", augments={"Physical Damage Taken -3%", "Magic Damage Taken -3%", "Critical Hite Rate +2"}},
feet="Qaaxo Leggings",
neck="Flame Gorget",
waist="Light Belt",
left_ear="Brutal Earring",
right_ear="Moonshade Earring",
left_ring="Pyrosoul Ring",
right_ring="Epona's Ring",
back="Rancorous Mantle"

This is my general/foddery AM3/imp set.

Glanz////Ginsen
Felistris Mask//Asperity//Brutal//Tipudio
Tantra//Crit Otro//Rajas/Epona
Rancor (or Atheling if you dont trust healers)//Windbuffet (cetl if no ionis)//Otronif+1//Otronif+1

Otronif has to be all +1 and Crit2% to beat Hesy/Anchorite combo.

Edit DA otronif legs are a very very niche choice and generally inferior to other options

Edit 2: Tantra Cylcas with impetus up for all crit based WSs but that should be a given
 Carbuncle.Dagget
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By Carbuncle.Dagget 2014-08-20 19:12:03
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Ragnarok.Drewbles said: »

The mistake with this argument is that unless your sets (and the gear you acquire because of this) are just being made to show each other, then those variables are going to be there. So honesty though there is no real ability to figure out what works best all the time spreadsheets won't always come out the best.

Even people who agree that in practice glanz shits on everything, dps spreadsheet says it doesn't, but it should. There is just way to much stuff in the game now to predict it all. I use spreadsheets everyday to get ideas but I always test everything before I swear by it.

Actually over a extremely large sample size spreadsheets should almost always come out "correct" assuming the values for monsters are correct.

Parsing is significantly more inaccurate to determine what is "best" due to general small sample sizes / other things mote brought up. especially on things such as tojil where his stun punishes you for being at the top of the hate list.

Other variables IE not having a buff that someone else does means that sample must be thrown out. They're not 100% accurate, but they are far and away the most accurate method we have of determining gear choices for different situations.

DPS spreadsheets actually do agree with the notion glanz dominates everything, on higher level targets especially.

The problem many people have with spreadsheeting things is they'll just swap weapons and assume one set is optimal for both weapons, which is almost never the case.
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 Siren.Noxzema
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By Siren.Noxzema 2014-08-20 20:12:44
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Does anyone have the updated spreadsheet, it seems the docs.google site is having issues atm. It says that there was a problem loading more pages, and when I tried to dl it, all of the values on the gear tab are ###s, and I can't change gear.
 Fenrir.Motenten
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By Fenrir.Motenten 2014-08-20 22:10:00
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Which spreadsheet? .xlsx, or .xls? Which program are you using to try to read it?
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By Odin.Calipso 2014-08-20 23:21:01
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Carbuncle.Dagget said: »
Carbuncle.Akivatoo said: »

actually i'm looking For Ascetic's Fury WS set and AM3 specific build, maybe old GLanz owner have suggestion for help me ?

ammo="Tantra Tathlum",
head="Uk'uxkaj Cap",
body="Qaaxo Harness",
hands="Anchorite's Gloves +1",
legs={name="Otronif Brais +1", augments={"Physical Damage Taken -3%", "Magic Damage Taken -3%", "Critical Hite Rate +2"}},
feet="Qaaxo Leggings",
neck="Flame Gorget",
waist="Light Belt",
left_ear="Brutal Earring",
right_ear="Moonshade Earring",
left_ring="Pyrosoul Ring",
right_ring="Epona's Ring",
back="Rancorous Mantle"

This is my general/foddery AM3/imp set.

Glanz////Ginsen
Felistris Mask//Asperity//Brutal//Tipudio
Tantra//Crit Otro//Rajas/Epona
Rancor (or Atheling if you dont trust healers)//Windbuffet (cetl if no ionis)//Otronif+1//Otronif+1

Otronif has to be all +1 and Crit2% to beat Hesy/Anchorite combo.

Edit DA otronif legs are a very very niche choice and generally inferior to other options

Edit 2: Tantra Cylcas with impetus up for all crit based WSs but that should be a given

For AF, I get Quiahuiz legs with str aug winning by a decent amount over crit+2 Otronif legs. Caudata belt (wins on SS in my sets) can be a good option, too.
 Carbuncle.Dagget
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By Carbuncle.Dagget 2014-08-21 00:51:00
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Odin.Calipso said: »
Carbuncle.Dagget said: »
Carbuncle.Akivatoo said: »

actually i'm looking For Ascetic's Fury WS set and AM3 specific build, maybe old GLanz owner have suggestion for help me ?

ammo="Tantra Tathlum",
head="Uk'uxkaj Cap",
body="Qaaxo Harness",
hands="Anchorite's Gloves +1",
legs={name="Otronif Brais +1", augments={"Physical Damage Taken -3%", "Magic Damage Taken -3%", "Critical Hite Rate +2"}},
feet="Qaaxo Leggings",
neck="Flame Gorget",
waist="Light Belt",
left_ear="Brutal Earring",
right_ear="Moonshade Earring",
left_ring="Pyrosoul Ring",
right_ring="Epona's Ring",
back="Rancorous Mantle"

This is my general/foddery AM3/imp set.

Glanz////Ginsen
Felistris Mask//Asperity//Brutal//Tipudio
Tantra//Crit Otro//Rajas/Epona
Rancor (or Atheling if you dont trust healers)//Windbuffet (cetl if no ionis)//Otronif+1//Otronif+1

Otronif has to be all +1 and Crit2% to beat Hesy/Anchorite combo.

Edit DA otronif legs are a very very niche choice and generally inferior to other options

Edit 2: Tantra Cylcas with impetus up for all crit based WSs but that should be a given

For AF, I get Quiahuiz legs with str aug winning by a decent amount over crit+2 Otronif legs. Caudata belt (wins on SS in my sets) can be a good option, too.

Quai/Ighwa/Otro+1 Crit should be the 3 WS legs you have depending on situation (they all are near the same, but optimally they each beat each other depending on buffs/mob/gear available)
But if you own a glanzfaust there's 0 excuse to not have all 3
 Carbuncle.Akivatoo
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By Carbuncle.Akivatoo 2014-08-21 01:33:59
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Actually i use Otronif +1 leg DA+2 and Otonif Feet + 1 Crit+2,
i assume Ighwa is for accu set (i need drop this to remove manibozo legs)
so i'm gonna try the AM3 Dagget set, but did you have the gearswap rules for equip it during Aftermath ?

that's very joyfull to talk about u'r gear experience and get all your feedback guy's.


this can work ?
sets.engaged.Aftermath = set_combine(sets.engaged, {Glanz////Ginsen
Felistris Mask//Asperity//Brutal//Tipudio
Tantra//Crit Otro//Rajas/Epona
Rancor (or Atheling if you dont trust healers)//Windbuffet (cetl if no ionis)//Otronif+1//Otronif+1})

function get_combat_form()
if buffactive.Aftermath then
classes.CustomMeleeGroups:append('Aftermath')
end
 Siren.Noxzema
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By Siren.Noxzema 2014-08-21 09:01:44
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Fenrir.Motenten said: »
Which spreadsheet? .xlsx, or .xls? Which program are you using to try to read it?
Sorry, its the .slsx, on Firefox if I click on it to bring up the preview, it shows the first page and at the bottom it says "Whoops! There was a problem loading more pages." (happens on both of my comps, and not just mnk)
For the downloaded version I use LibreOffice, versions in the past have worked with no problems.

Edit: I just tried the .xls, same issue on Firefox, and with LibreOffice I can change gear, but values are still ###s, and the category (i.e race, food, subjob, weapon etc) are all #N/A, can post pics if it would help
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By Asura.Vinedrius 2014-08-25 08:00:12
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I would really appraciate it if someone can post a pair of buffless (not even mnk JAs) TP and VS set, with good enough accuracy on top of sushi, for "difficult" hard mode fights, preferably without any gear from those BCs except Ginsen (since I don't have any other drop from them), random augments and delve 2 boss drops.

Thanks in advance.
 Carbuncle.Akivatoo
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By Carbuncle.Akivatoo 2014-08-25 08:37:24
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ItemSet 327598
cheap accu set, easy to get outside delve or Hard BCNM equipment
 Asura.Vinedrius
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By Asura.Vinedrius 2014-08-25 08:53:51
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Carbuncle.Akivatoo said: »
ItemSet 327598
cheap accu set, easy to get outside delve or Hard BCNM equipment

Thanks. I got Whirlpool and can grab a Qaaxo body and/or Tinhaspa. I wouldn't mind the cost of static augments. Would those change the rest of the setup?
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By Phoenix.Keme 2014-08-25 10:28:17
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Lol, Glanzfaust is cheap
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 Asura.Vinedrius
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By Asura.Vinedrius 2014-08-25 11:52:23
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Phoenix.Keme said: »
Lol, Glanzfaust is cheap

Yeah lol I just ignored that. He probably started making up the set with his own glanz in mind, then forgot about it :D
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 Carbuncle.Akivatoo
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By Carbuncle.Akivatoo 2014-08-25 12:24:41
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yeah i only focused on armor ^^
if you have acces to Qaaxo body that's perfect !
 Asura.Vinedrius
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By Asura.Vinedrius 2014-08-25 13:15:01
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Carbuncle.Akivatoo said: »
yeah i only focused on armor ^^
if you have acces to Qaaxo body that's perfect !

Alright. Would Tinhaspa B be overkill over Oatixur?
 Carbuncle.Akivatoo
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By Carbuncle.Akivatoo 2014-08-25 23:46:18
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yeah do it at path B
 Carbuncle.Dagget
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By Carbuncle.Dagget 2014-08-31 00:14:53
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Asura.Vinedrius said: »
I would really appraciate it if someone can post a pair of buffless (not even mnk JAs) TP and VS set, with good enough accuracy on top of sushi, for "difficult" hard mode fights, preferably without any gear from those BCs except Ginsen (since I don't have any other drop from them), random augments and delve 2 boss drops.

Thanks in advance.

Qaaxo Feet/Legs/Body (ACC/PDT path) Ej Whirlpool Melee +2 and letalis with sushi is all the acc you should need with sushi
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By Heimdel 2014-09-05 17:08:56
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Carbuncle.Akivatoo said: »
i totally agree all the last Inference reply about gears and all other analyse for MNK,
parse actually are the best way for know Accu and wsavg but that’s the only usefull use.

Make an update for MNK guide is a good idea cause many thing change since last update.
Maybe share u’r Gearswap file for R/E/M user can be usefull for specific set.

ItemSet 327443
ItemSet 327444
ItemSet 327445

ItemSet 327446

ItemSet 323596

actually i'm looking For Ascetic's Fury WS set and AM3 specific build, maybe old GLanz owner have suggestion for help me ?

Unfortunately a lot of the guides are outdated now. The people who made most them aren't around anymore. Now there just aren't the kind people around with the interest of doing new ones.
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