IiPunch - Monk Guide

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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2017-08-11 17:19:18
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I only posted to rattle the cage of an angry mod. Don't mind me.

[Mod Edit: Clarified what KN meant by this post. - AnnaMolly]

[KN Edit: Sowwy]
 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2017-08-11 17:25:19
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Siren.Robthunder said: »
How about solving a series of trigonometric equations and intense logarithms that change with every boost and if you can solve in the correct amount of time, you do increased weaponskill damage. Otherwise no effect.

Or what if you press boost once then spam the X button and your boost increase is determined by how many times you pressed X.
Both solutions sound more convenient, effective add less convoluted then the current implementation SE decided to grace us with
 Sylph.Ice
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By Sylph.Ice 2017-08-11 18:03:09
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Woofwoof.
 Fenrir.Cherrywine
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2017-08-11 18:07:26
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Let's stage a funny protest across servers. How about making Monday the 14th MNKday? Everyone interested, between events or whatever, change to MNK/RDM. Get your MP as low as possible, Convert and use a poison potion in order to die in Lower Jeuno between the AH and the server feed/invisible Moogle.

We'll need some help with poison potions. They are easy to make from ingredients available right in Lower Jeuno, I think. If anyone has a mule to bazaar them to the side...

The bigger the body pile, the bigger the fun! Come back once an hour to restage yourself, unless you actually need to play. But, by and large, we all AFK in a town somewhere anyway...
 Sylph.Ice
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By Sylph.Ice 2017-08-11 18:10:13
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Fenrir.Cherrywine said: »
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Fenrir.Cherrywine said: »
Let's stage a funny protest across servers. How about making Monday the 14th MNKday? Everyone interested, between events or whatever, change to MNK/RDM. Get your MP as low as possible, Convert and use a poison potion in order to die in Lower Jeuno between the AH and the server feed/invisible Moogle.

We'll need some help with poison potions. They are easy to make from ingredients available right in Lower Jeuno, I think. If anyone has a mule to bazaar them to the side...

The bigger the body pile, the bigger the fun! Come back once an hour to restage yourself, unless you actually need to play. But, by and large, we all AFK in a town somewhere anyway...

To help save on costs, you can farm Verboshrooms in Cirdas Caverns. When you eat them, they give you poison!
 Leviathan.Brotherhood
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By Leviathan.Brotherhood 2017-08-11 18:20:41
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Sylph.Ice said: »
Fenrir.Cherrywine said: »
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Fenrir.Cherrywine said: »
Let's stage a funny protest across servers. How about making Monday the 14th MNKday? Everyone interested, between events or whatever, change to MNK/RDM. Get your MP as low as possible, Convert and use a poison potion in order to die in Lower Jeuno between the AH and the server feed/invisible Moogle.

We'll need some help with poison potions. They are easy to make from ingredients available right in Lower Jeuno, I think. If anyone has a mule to bazaar them to the side...

The bigger the body pile, the bigger the fun! Come back once an hour to restage yourself, unless you actually need to play. But, by and large, we all AFK in a town somewhere anyway...

To help save on costs, you can farm Verboshrooms in Cirdas Caverns. When you eat them, they give you poison!
Stand by a synergy furnace team up, and let the death randomly happen
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 Fenrir.Cherrywine
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2017-08-11 18:27:00
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Or would the 15th be better since it's Vana'diel Day? I'd hate to schedule it then, on the off chance it isn't something stupid like a re-coloring of Airships so they look like Fat Chocobos flying through the air. Or extra large Malboros in the Fields.

But if it is as bad as can be expected, it might be extra fitting?
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 Fenrir.Cherrywine
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2017-08-11 18:59:30
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Or shall I schedule something a little more in advance, notify SE and ask for Moogles to help us celebrate the August Downdate?
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 Fenrir.Richybear
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By Fenrir.Richybear 2017-08-11 19:56:49
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But what if the secret to Boost is actually punching in Shoryuken button combo and hitting Enter right as you're about to auto attack next? Or conversely Hurricane Kick while footwork is active?
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 Fenrir.Ramzus
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By Fenrir.Ramzus 2017-08-12 15:39:19
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thinking too far out, it's probably similar to the button inputs for Sabin in FF6
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By fillerbunny9 2017-08-12 16:00:14
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Fenrir.Ramzus said: »
thinking too far out, it's probably similar to the button inputs for Sabin in FF6

to be fair, Aura Bolt was the same as a Hadouken, Fire Dance was a half circle left to right like the Kikoken (when it's not a charge, at least), and Bum Rush was a Spinning Piledriver. the two are largely the same thing.
 Fenrir.Cherrywine
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2017-08-12 17:37:58
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I'm visualizing all those times I've tried to complete a Fatality in Mortal Kombat, only to jump straight up in the air three times before running out of time... Booooost.
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By Chyula 2017-08-12 19:02:55
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have to enter the secret holy code Up Up Down Down Left Right Left Right B A Enter WS.
 Leviathan.Brotherhood
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By Leviathan.Brotherhood 2017-08-12 19:22:19
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SO, with the update to h2h damage and delay, What "Martial arts" Value should I be aiming for?

Obvious answer is "As much as you can get while maintaining capped haste, max multi attack and STP"

So what is a legit answer
 Fenrir.Cherrywine
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2017-08-12 20:15:47
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It depends on the weapon you use. But, universally, there are better pieces to wear if you have them. That hasn't changed.
 Leviathan.Brotherhood
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By Leviathan.Brotherhood 2017-08-12 21:59:42
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Fenrir.Cherrywine said: »
It depends on the weapon you use. But, universally, there are better pieces to wear if you have them. That hasn't changed.
Assume Godhands
 Fenrir.Cherrywine
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2017-08-13 06:11:15
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Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Asura.Akamatzu said: »
Can someone explain to me how much martial arts is needed for it hurts TP gain and how they got that number?

I would calculate it myself, but I have no idea how to start that math. :(

Laid out pretty well on BGWiki "Attack Speed" page

Quote:
For Martial Arts, which is not a percentage-based decrease, you must use your base delay (480 for H2H) plus weapon delay in the calculations instead of calculating it independent of delay as shown above.

Minimum H2H delay is 96
The 80% Delay reduction cap still applies to your (Base Delay + Weapon Delay).
For example when calculating delay with H2H you take (480 (Base Delay) +xx (+Weapon Delay) -xx(MA Delay Reduction))×(1024 - xx Equipment Haste - xx Magic Haste - xx Job Ability Haste)÷1024 =xx

The minimum delay possible for a Spharai would be (480 Base Delay + 86 Weapon Delay)*.2 Delay cap = 113.2 minimum possible delay.

The delay for a Spharai Monk with capped gear and magic haste only, would be (480 Base Delay + 86 Weapon Delay - 200 Martial Arts Delay)×(1024 - 256 Equipment Haste - 448 Magic Haste)=114.3 which is nearly minimum delay.

The basics:
If you are at capped delay reduction, additional MA works like excess DW in that it provides no additional attack speed benefit, but the theoretical value (even beyond the 80% total delay reduction cap) is still used for the purpose of calculating TP/hit... As in, using more MA when you're already at delay cap just means you get less TP per swing. Now, it's still generally better to have max magical haste and deal with the slightly less TP/hit return than it is to not have enough haste and be considerably slower than max delay reduction. But that doesn't make it less annoying.

If you are at capped magical haste (448/1024):
As a general rule, if you're getting capped magical haste you will already be below delay reduction cap without any additional MA gear. So try not to use additional MA gear if you can help it.

More specifically:
* For any delay+60 or less H2H, you're already under cap even with zero gifts.
* For Delay+96 weapons, 100 gift (MA-5, on top of MNK's base -200 Martial Arts VII trait) puts you right at cap. 1200 gift (adding another MA-5 for -210 total) puts you under delay cap.
* Delay+130 weapon (just Ohrmazd, which you shouldn't really be using anyway) is actually still just slightly over delay cap even with both MA gifts. But you should use a different weapon.

If you aren't at capped magical haste:
However... MA isn't always bad! If you're only getting Haste II or less, you will NOT be reaching delay cap and more Martial Arts does provide a significant benefit. Good MA pieces like Hizamaru Somen+1 and Mache Earrings are actually quite good in this scenario.

The key point:
Quite simply, it's beneficial to have a haste capped TP set with no MA gear, and a non-haste capped TP set including the good MA pieces.

Of course, you can play with the formula too, to account for stuff JA haste from a DNC main or /DNC. It's basically the same decision though: use MA gear if you're not also getting capped magical haste, don't use MA gear if you are getting capped magical haste.

Capuchin really knows his stuff about Martial Arts, so I've quoted him here. I'll put in the new H2H values for Godhands in a moment...

So the minimum delay we can experience with Godhands is:
(480 + 138) * .2 = 123.6

When Haste-capped and Mastered, Godhands delay is:
(480 + 138 - 210) * (1024 - 256 - 448) / 1024 = 127.5

13 more Martial Arts would put you at 123.4375, or a hair too far.
12 is the most you'd want to wear.
 Fenrir.Cherrywine
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2017-08-13 06:41:44
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For sake of comparison:

Glanzfaust
So the minimum delay we can experience with Glanzfaust is:
(480 + 126) * .2 = 121.2

When Haste-capped and Mastered, Glanzfaust delay is:
(480 + 126 - 210) * (1024 - 256 - 448) / 1024 = 123.75


Spharai
So the minimum delay we can experience with Spharai is:
(480 + 116) * .2 = 119.2

When Haste-capped and Mastered, Spharai delay is:
(480 + 116 - 210) * (1024 - 256 - 448) / 1024 = 120.625


Verethragna
So the minimum delay we can experience with Verethragna is:
(480 + 81) * .2 = 112.2

When Haste-capped and Mastered, Verethragna delay is:
(480 + 81 - 210) * (1024 - 256 - 448) / 1024 = 109.6875
 Fenrir.Cherrywine
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2017-08-13 06:45:35
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You could add up to 8 Martial Arts gear and not exceed the delay cap when wearing Glanzfaust.

You could add up to 4 Martial Arts gear and not exceed the delay cap when wearing Spharai.

Please, anyone, feel free to confirm my method and results.
 Fenrir.Cherrywine
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2017-08-13 06:52:06
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What does this mean? Well looking forward...

It means, unless you use Godhands or Glanzfaust, wearing Bhikku Cyclas +1 during Impetus puts you in the same goddamn spot you were in prior to SE's misguided, stupid, brain-dead adjustment to all H2H weapons rather than to MNK's misguided, stupid, brain-dead gift table.

And if, whenever they get around to adding them, Bhikku Cyclas +2 and +3 have higher Martial Arts values, they could put all MNKs back where they were prior to the August Downdate.

There aren't enough curses in the world to express how I'm feeling towards SE's incompetence.
 Leviathan.Sidra
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By Leviathan.Sidra 2017-08-13 06:57:48
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That Boost change has to be one of the strangest things I have seen in the game in a long time.
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-08-13 21:15:17
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YouTube Video Placeholder


Explains MNK quite well...
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 Bismarck.Vashkoda
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By Bismarck.Vashkoda 2017-08-14 01:14:25
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Explains MNK quite well...

I doubt the entire job was meant to be reduced to the status of a red herring. :p So best case scenario, there's a Combinatoric Marginal Mechanic at work here? If so, someone please hurry and solve it!

On the topic of MA gear, how much would be needed to achieve minimum boost delay (presumably you would only need to keep it on during ja activation since at that point the timer is set). Nyralko's testing in BG forums showed that using two 150 delay daggers as THF/MNK with (I assume) capped haste/DW could not get below a boost duration of 5.1 sec, so that is presumably set as the absolute minimum delay possible, yet a NIN/MNK with two 227 delay daggers and way overcapped gear and magical haste and DW reduction couldn't get below 7 seconds. That might imply that certain things like weapon delay factor more heavily in the delay calculation than haste, yet can MNK main with Vere get anywhere near 5 or 7 second boost delays with just capped haste alone? How much can MA gear help with that?
 Fenrir.Cherrywine
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2017-08-14 11:30:27
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Bismarck.Vashkoda said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »
Explains MNK quite well...

I doubt the entire job was meant to be reduced to the status of a red herring. :p So best case scenario, there's a Combinatoric Marginal Mechanic at work here? If so, someone please hurry and solve it!

On the topic of MA gear, how much would be needed to achieve minimum boost delay (presumably you would only need to keep it on during ja activation since at that point the timer is set). Nyralko's testing in BG forums showed that using two 150 delay daggers as THF/MNK with (I assume) capped haste/DW could not get below a boost duration of 5.1 sec, so that is presumably set as the absolute minimum delay possible, yet a NIN/MNK with two 227 delay daggers and way overcapped gear and magical haste and DW reduction couldn't get below 7 seconds. That might imply that certain things like weapon delay factor more heavily in the delay calculation than haste, yet can MNK main with Vere get anywhere near 5 or 7 second boost delays with just capped haste alone? How much can MA gear help with that?

No, it's a mistake. A big one. Using flowery language, you could make a video about it and call it a Craptastic Mistake of Magnitude.

And the Marital Arts set you are seeking (don't bother) is a few pages back, or in my profile somewhere.
 Leviathan.Andret
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By Leviathan.Andret 2017-08-14 12:15:10
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There are 2 primary causes of problems around the world:

#1 Somebody is not doing something they should or is doing something they shouldn't.

#2 Things are not working the way it is intended to work.

Monk update is the later.
 Fenrir.Cherrywine
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2017-08-14 12:44:26
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The weird thing about your hypothesis is:

#1: Some think it is doing something (for WS DMG). And SE hasn't acknowledged that it isn't doing anything. If it is doing something, the result is so small it isn't worth using.

#2: SE has acknowledged that the delay is intentional. That piece is working (against all MNKs). The only part SE has stated isn't working, is that it is giving too much TP to those /MNK. So, the emergency maintenance that we all experienced was to nerf against the only people reporting that they found a possible use for the dumb thing.
 Leviathan.Andret
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By Leviathan.Andret 2017-08-14 14:25:18
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It's really simple to see how SE brain has been working on Monk. Monk needs a boost to damage. It has 2 primary issues: MA overload and a lack of strong WS damage. SE needs to fix these using minimal amount of work and manpower.

The 1st one is simple, raise the delay and base damage.

The 2nd one can be solved with a raise in base damage and tweaking the JA for Monk. This is where they fumble around. The simple solution is to just give Boost a straight damage increase. Boost > WS and instant high powered WS. However, they had raised the base damage so they think "Geez, maybe we shouldn't make Monk too strong! They are dual wielding 2 Great Katanas already!" So they nerf it a bit with a 60sec delay and cook up the delay-boost thing.

Focus and Dodge are what I don't really get. They have no reason to do them other than the fact that people tend to report Dodge as 'useless' and Focus is too weak.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-08-14 14:36:13
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Leviathan.Andret said: »
The 2nd one can be solved with a raise in base damage and tweaking the JA for Monk.

No it can't. H2H ws's are fundamentally broken and incapable of being exploited. Right now damage is primarily about exploiting WS's inherent mechanics to pump its numbers up.
 Ragnarok.Inx
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By Ragnarok.Inx 2017-08-14 14:40:31
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Bear in mind Boost is a level 5 job ability, so they need to consider its impact across all level ranges as applied to both MNK main and as a subjob.

To be honest the changes to boost seem more about mitigating the issue that boost-stacking no longer fits with the faster-pace of today's game.

Lets face it, the state of boost is red-herring. If you want to fix monk you adjust the potency of h2h ws and/or add additional traits to improve its performance. Boost, being a high-frequency (low cooldown) ability acquired early on, simply isn't a good fit.
 Fenrir.Caiir
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By Fenrir.Caiir 2017-08-14 14:47:06
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Bear in mind that they don't need to consider that at all because it'd be trivial to do something like add Lv.75-99 trait "Enchanced Boost".

Stop trying to defend shitty development decisions, it's tiring.
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