IiPunch - Monk Guide

MDB does nothing to prevent statuses and relatively little to reduce damage compared to resists. This is becoming tiring, you're looking for excuses to support your hypothesis instead of refuting the numbers I've posted. Every valid point I make receives an emotional response with no comparable logic backing it.

If one of us is getting emotional, it isn't me. I was pointing out that the gifts given to jobs vary. You even supported this when you included that RUN gets more magic evasion. I was showing that there is even more at play.
Remember when we were discussing DT? The usefulness of Fade?

I don't need to make a spreadsheet and spool out a long mathematical formula/argument to discuss what we all know: MNKs aren't beating content that is killing everyone else.

If you are getting tired, take a break.

If MNK was the only job able to beat content, it wouldn't be balanced. Your original standpoint was that MNK's ability set is garbage and there's no reason to use it, supporting the standpoint it should be top of the line DPS.

I've illustrated that MNK has a wide variety of benefits, backing it with numbers, and your only response is 'oh thats not good enough because X job has Y'. You are clearly set in your way, determined to pity yourself and wallow about how bad off MNK is.

The reality is that all it needs is a moderate DPS boost and it'd be a great job. Whether you can see that through your blinders is not my problem any more, there's no further explanation that can be given.

I mean, there's kind of a reason why many people used multiple MNKs rotating Mantra on Delve bosses when they first started dying even when other jobs were more powerful. MNKs can wear pretty damn good gear in their DT/hybrid sets and get a billion HP. They literally just need a DPS boost to be good again, every other thing about MNK is fine.

Although counterstance kind of blows since they can't counter ironclad-type attacks (but SE did fix that by making a lot of newer NMs not have that type of auto attack...)

The only pity is that MNK is junk.
I have no regrets about my investment in it. I've been clear on that from the get-go. I'm not sure where the disconnect is between my position and where you think I stand.

So, let's start over... MNK is useless because it has terrible damage and abilities that have no sigificant impact on any battle. If the abilities could sway a battle, it could have a use.
If the damage is significantly improved, it could have a use.

Regarding abilities, let's look at the Omen bosses. Are their TP moves giving anyone trouble? Anyone?? Anyone at all???
Or is it their set-HP moves?

Now before you accuse me of changing my stance, I haven't. Less TP gain? More TP gain? It doesn't matter, that stuff isn't killing anyone due to the job they chose to bring.

Every problem with MNK can be overcome by doing better DMG.
Albumen? Any benefit a resistance set may offer will be offset by the longer battle. A non-resist is an inconvenience that might cause small or big problems. But having to do extra cycles of lullabies would create a far larger margin of error. It can cast spells and en-petrify even if its TP gain is stunted, though, in a zerg, it's TP gain won't be significantly stunted. Subtle blow isn't amnesia. It wouldn't be enough to matter.
Schah? I don't know if anyone melees this, we don't. But I add it here because, in this fight, fewer TP moves would be nice--but doing more damage faster reduces the number of TP moves/chance the adds can do something horrible. An increase in DMG will matter more than giving less TP.

Where do the benefits of subtle blow begin to appear anywhere but in theory?

And to Ramz, in Delve, to be fair, gear options were radically different. I think other jobs have far better options now. Would MNK have been taken if Formless Strikes weren't so nice for working through the set-HP phases?

Yeah, it took me some time to warm up to Kendatsuba, but the Meva is significant. I've taken to using 3~4 pieces (and that's just NQ) on NIN on most "serious" content, and if I were to actually start using MNK I'd likely do the same. The Subtle Blow on the set helps make it really easy to cap too, so with Mantra, reduced TP/fewer mob TP moves, AND much better Meva when something magical does come out... that's not a bad option for a relatively safe melee strat on a lot of stuff.

Kendatsuba's lack of attack is sort of a bummer, but that's one of the reasons I start wondering about stuff like whether these kinds of situations are a pretty good case for Spharai (4/5 Kendatsuba + Kick shoes, lots of crit, atk+60 on the weapon...).

except lullaby lasts 7 min and even at today's damage, a group of mnks will kill it in under 5

an extra 200 m.eva will guarantee 95% resist rate on the enpetrify and spells, given any DD already need attune/vex/carol to get a reasonable win rate

As stated on the last page, even if you assume MNK does 60% as much damage as WAR, they will finish the fight with between 1/3 and 1/2 as many total TP. Furthermore, the time between TP will be more than doubled, reducing chances to die significantly. Don't forget that having nasty moves like interference going off at 3000 TP because 3 2hers are gangbanging it with 400 tp/sec is going to be a lot more troublesome than at 1000.

Numbers, use them. You're still all feeling.

I know I'm a couple pages late on this but

We are seriously debating drain 3 getting dispelled on dark Knight, in OMEN? You do realize that dark pretty much walks through that move (interference) with founders, arcane circl we and crest, right?

If your point was survivability between dark and monk, you picked the worst scenario to make that case. Omen is dark Knight's ***

Your calculation of a fight with between 1/3 and 1/2 as many total TP is not the same as that many fewer TP moves. It is still a race to how quickly the target's HP is 0. Time matters. And targets don't immediately use moves when TP hits a certain %. There is wiggle there that makes killing it faster > slower target TP gain.

It is important for the numbers to reflect reality. Otherwise, the best intentioned math can result in the worst results.

There isn't a single person saying an increase in DMG isn't extremely important. But hey, if you get that increase in DMG why not view less TP moves as a bonus?

There's literally no reason NOT to have Penance at 4/5 or more and use Chi Blast on an Omen boss. Perhaps it's not a massive problem dealing with TP moves, but surely less of them is better, right? Especially with low man setups, it really does become a significant difference in number of TP moves used. Perhaps an awesome zerg strat is still better, and may not favor MNK. But it's an option, and perhaps easier to accomplish for groups without all of the Idris-having, fully geared zerg WAR DRK, zerg setups.


Gear options weren't THAT radically different across jobs though. The light DD armor of the day was used for like 9 jobs, none of which were as popular as MNK. Yeah, Formless gimmicks helped, but let's not pretend Mantra and some of MNK's defensive utility weren't significant.

We used a majority MNKs for Shark as well, where Formless Strikes didn't matter nearly as much. My SAM was wiping the floor with any MNK in our LS once I had Tsurumaru. Having the extra Mantra HP was great

If a mob without regain is being meleed by 2 MNKs using the standard TP set with hq moonbow, alternating penance, with an average attacks per round of 3.5, the mob will take approximately 48 seconds to reach 1000 TP.

If the same mob is being meleed by 2 WARs using the standard TP set with HQ chirich ring and an average of 1.9 attacks per round, it will take 12 seconds to reach 1000 TP.

The mob being fought by WARs has 3000 TP long before the one being fought by MNKs has 1000. Seriously, you can't explain that away with 'mobs dont always ws instantly'.

For sure, it is better than nothing. But the JAs won't save MNK if DMG is not radically improved.
We are all agreeing that with enough DMG, MNK will be viable.

Not to get too off track talking about Delve 1.0... but Formless WAS useful on pretty much any zone for the magical weak boss HP% phase (or to counter the blunt penalty phases), and for stuff like Foret Cracklaw. And MNK had some other uses like /RUN for en-thunder in Foret (and runes for defensive utility).

That being said, totally with you on the basic point that MNK was popular then precisely due to being capable enough at dealing damage while also having lots of defensive perks, and not just due to raw DPS when ignoring survival (agreed with you that, excluding specific weapon type weaknesses, your similar quality Tsuru SAM would wipe the floor with Oatixur MNK if purely considering damage).


I guess we're all just talking a lot because of curiosity and excitement then, because everyone is kinda on the same page...

Comeatme's points that MNK's damage should fall somewhere in between WAR ~ BLU seems fair to me. And while a certain baseline of damage capability is necessary for MNK to be viable, it's very reasonable to say that defensive perks can help offset not being the best of the best damage-wise, as long as MNK can do enough damage. We might have some argument about how much increase is required to make it to "enough" damage... but today, we're all agreeing that some significant buff is required.

Agreed, there were other jobs that could perform the same duties as MNK (BLU with Requiescat) but MNK was just too attractive when their damage was still relatively decent. They'll be in a similar spot again if they get DPS buffed.

Ya'll need to hug and find Jesus!

Delve was released in March of 2013.
Mighty Guard and the update to weaken delve bosses was September of 2015.

So many changes have come out to make other jobs more attractive while MNK was left far behind.

Facts

Re: Spharai

http://www.ffxiah.com/item/21506/jolt-counter

5 more damage, 10 more delay, roughly the same acc, 10str/vit, way less attack and no 3x proc for 1/50th of the price

Yes, and everyone agrees on that.

None of that changes the idea than a "strong enough" DD with some additional defensive benefits was an attractive choice then, and is potentially still an attractive choice now for current content. Problem is that MNK today isn't "strong enough" on the DD side. Maybe the August update will help to change that.

So the whole reason Mnk sucks atm is because:

#1 It doesn't do enough damage to make it worth a slot anywhere at anytime. It can't rivals the 2H power house in high buff situations and it got it *** handed to it by Blus in low buff situations. It can't even be anywhere relevant against almost any DD in between with some-buff.

#2 Without its strong DD capabilities, Mnk potential roles in a party is dismal at best. It brings 3 things: Mantra, Subtle Blow effects and Formless Strikes. None of which really matter outside of some 2015 fights that people can solo.

There is almost no reason you can build a strategy around a Mnk relevant content. You can build it around a Thf with strong WS chain or a 2H DD with zerg-like buffs or Schs/Blms with magic burst or Blu with mostly self buffs. Even Ninja can do some serious sub tanking and melee and nuking. However, Mnk is rarely on the table.

Eh. I use Tumult Curator H2H now (Comeuppances +1) and that's better DPS than Jolt Counter according to every spreadsheet scenario I ever recall seeing. Seems I have the best non-RMEA already (and it often beats some RMEA like Glanz at least situationally).

Maybe Spharai isn't worth it, but you're also leaving out that its large amount of attack is often relevant if not mega-buffed, and KA+15 aftermath is worth something especially considering AF119+3 feet. There's enough there to have made me curious to see if people were getting worthwile results out of Spharai, even if the answer ends up being "not really".

I mentioned that Jolt Counters have way less attack, Spharai definitely are better when you're not full attack buffed but again, they cost >50x more for a weapon that is basically tied to it in damage when you have fury/frail. Comeuppance are also better in unbuffed situations but when you're buffed the difference is pretty much non existent. Also, they come from a hard NM vs purchased off of the AH.

Comeuppances are also obtainable for free from Unity dial with some luck/mules. That's how I got mine, and 3 or so LS mates did the same thing over the course of a couple unity dial campaigns - so it's not as if it's impossibly rare. A thought for people who might want to mess with MNK without investing the time/gil into RMEA weapon.

I've been fine with them, since I did spreadsheet them at the time and found them to perform pretty favorably versus RMEA. In some cases beating the RMEA option, and in any case not the huge gulf between RMEA/non-RMEA like you see in a some jobs (SAM, for instance). I think that's more down to MNK RMEA being kinda lackluster as opposed to Comeuppances+1 being amazing, but it is what it is.

But yeah, Jolt Counters (and a well augmented pair of Condemners) are also fine non-RMEA options. Not that a non-RMEA MNK is worth much these days, considering that even a perfectly geared super-HQ MNK has major issues...

Don't wanna sound too anal Cherry, but it doesn't really make sense.
You said that the occasionally higher damage from Spharai works really well together with Kick Attacks, implying there is some sort of mutual benefit/synergy between the two.
There is not.

Of course the occasional higher damage from Spharai is a good thing, I'm not disagreeing with you on this, it's just that it "doesn't work really well with Kick attacsk". It works really well period, there is no synergy, connection or mutual benefit with Kick Attacks, they're just completely unrelated.

I think probably you were just tired and for a second you thought the Spharai's hidden effect could apply to Kicks as well and that made you write that it works very well with Kick attacks.
Because if that were real, then your sentence would've made perfect sense actually.



Don't really need an Aeonic group to get Aeonic weapons. We're in 2017, you're a resourceful player. Not sure how the situation is on Phoenix but if that's the issue you could consider moving to Asura.
The thing about having different Aeonic priorities makes perfect sense, the thing you say after about Spharai being "just gil" makes less sense.

First because it's not just gil, it's also lots of boring trials.
Second because Aeonic are "just gil" as well.
On Asura they get sold for something like 200mils according to what you need.
200 mils is not really that far from the amount of gil you'd need for Spharai approx 150mils) and without any of the super annoying trials.

It's totally worth something, especially with AF1+3 feet.
But does the gain you get from the KA+15 counterbalances the loss you get from using FH to keep AM up?
I'm not implying I know the answer, but I can't deny I'm moderately skeptic on it.

Getting back IT, lots of tack about Spharai, but no setup has been posted yet! Stop being shy people, I wanna be surprised and see cool Spharai sets!

I guess I could have phrased it differently. Maybe you are looking for something more like:
Ver's Aftermath results in frequent big punches.
Spharai's Aftermath results in more frequent kicks, which, with AF+3 feet are big hits. And the hidden effect results in less frequent big punches, but when you consider the two together, they work really well together.

I don't think there is one. Or, at least, there aren't any secrets to it.

Bhikku Hose +1 and Anchorite's Gaiters +3 have already been shown to being marginally BiS. With Spharai Aftermath their strength only shines a little bit more because you can count on extremely frequent kicks. More damage and more TP.
I do not think this will help Spharai push ahead for reasons already pointed out in this thread. But data shows that the two weapons aren't incredibly far apart, so it's whatever. And this might change after the update.

As far as Final Heaven being terrible. Yes, it is. But for those people playing that aren't getting higher than 8k Victory Smites, maybe their Final Heaven is 6k. In that case, they aren't losing much.
Victory Smite can be much better, but it is expensive to get it there. More expensive, I believe, than even just buying Spharai.

I think we've already agreed that Spharai isn't the best. I don't think anyone has even recommended making one (until after the update maybe). But it isn't a terrible option.
The question, as I read it, was more of a "Please help me think through where and how it performs... And how bad will it be?"

In the end, it won't be bad but it won't be great, either.

spharai setups are the same as vere because you should be using victorysmite. Spharai is roughly 6% weaker than vere+AM1, while being also roughly 5% stronger than godhands and thats not counting the ability to start a fight with the aftermath. Remember that it also has nice defensive stats. If you want pure damage you should get a verethragna and start your pop NMs with 300tp.

Thanks to austar I fixed some bugs which result in slightly higher dps though the gearset hierarchy is still the same. Generally speaking HQ kendatsuba head, body, hands, bikkhu hose+1 and af3 feet+3 appear to be the best tp set, closely followed by full kendatsuba+1 which has nice defensive stats as thorny explained (mdb, meva def and HP). Python sim here, run it with idle and winpython. Impetus is still not implemented.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7wbcilaHsTeUFNxU09BVXY3ek0

Is the mnk spreedsheet not up to date then or something? I always get Godhands as top dps, and your saying its last?