The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos

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The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos
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 Fenrir.Skarwind
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By Fenrir.Skarwind 2017-04-17 18:48:48
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Changing Reso to Great Divide has kinda thrown me off lol.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-04-17 19:14:54
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Some people can't for whatever reason, the client won't let them input another command while in animation lock.
 Odin.Miniman
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By Odin.Miniman 2017-04-20 19:46:57
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So are HQ Argosy feet just out entirely for reso now? I'm attempting to hunt down pieces on my server soon and it would be good to know if I can lose one less arm or leg here, lol.

Nice work updating the sets too, but I'm kinda curious about the rag mid build having so little sTP and in general all the room that's being made for multihit.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-04-20 19:58:36
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Odin.Miniman said: »
So are HQ Argosy feet just out entirely for reso now? I'm attempting to hunt down pieces on my server soon and it would be good to know if I can lose one less arm or leg here, lol.

Nice work updating the sets too, but I'm kinda curious about the rag mid build having so little sTP and the low acc sacrificing so much acc to fit in all that multihit.

It's down to HQ Argosy vs Pummeler's calligae +3

P calligae +3
STR 24 (+18 Attack)
DEX 26 (+19.5 Accuracy)
Acc 46 (65.5 Accuracy) +15 more from Set bonus
Atk 40 (58 Attack)
DA +9
Store TP +4

HQ Argosy feet Path A
STR 36 (+27 Attack)
DEX 32 (+24 Accuracy)
Acc 35 (59 Total)
Atk 50 (77 Total)
DA +2 (set bonus)
Store TP +5

I'm using the AF +3 feet now, once I get the Regal Ring it will make that set bonus too.
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By Odin.Miniman 2017-04-20 21:51:05
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Thanks for the breakdown. I generally like to err on the side of more acc and the extra DA seems like it'd offset the attack difference a bit. Plus I mean, anything that'll save some money since I already have +3 feet lol.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-04-20 22:02:45
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Yeah AF +3 feet are pretty boss, the legs are kinda weird because high DA and acc but no attack while HQ Argosy are just Jesus OMGWTF in Acc / Atk / STR / DEX with some DA tossed on top. DRK's have it reversed, their legs are pretty amazing but their feet are weird and cumbersome.
 Asura.Starfishsky
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By Asura.Starfishsky 2017-04-23 11:29:02
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so i made my ragnarok its on the last step of 119 but i need those 10,000 plutons. i tried to test the weapon anyway and see how does it fair at it's current state.

i got to say i am very disapointed in many ways, and i hope the final thing will be more usefull than this.

compared to my zulfiqar with +25 dmg augment, the ragnarok with with dmg 224 i found the dmg was about 1/3rd if not less.

my zulfigar can do at least 12k and upto 22k on revives in marjami revive, when i tried ragnarok it did 4.5k and maxed at 6.9k

I find it a bit strange, i spend more than a month working on this weapon and it's still useless without AG, how does this make any sense? and if i get the AG, is it really gona be better than zulfigar? as zulfigar has more dmg and more delay so faster TP.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-04-23 11:35:37
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The stupid ... it hurts...
 Fenrir.Skarwind
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By Fenrir.Skarwind 2017-04-23 12:49:00
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Rag or any melee relic/mythic/empy is a paper weight until it is afterglowed.
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 Asura.Starfishsky
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By Asura.Starfishsky 2017-04-23 12:59:57
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Fenrir.Skarwind said: »
Rag or any melee relic/mythic/empy is a paper weight until it is afterglowed.
thanks, never had any AG before so i got no idea really. can't wait to get this done :)
 Bismarck.Firedemon
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By Bismarck.Firedemon 2017-04-23 13:03:02
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Fenrir.Skarwind said: »
Rag or any melee relic/mythic/empy is a paper weight until it is afterglowed.

I don't agree 100% with this statement. Afterglow won't fix your DPS if don't have the gear to back it up.
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-04-23 13:06:11
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Bismarck.Firedemon said: »
Fenrir.Skarwind said: »
Rag or any melee relic/mythic/empy is a paper weight until it is afterglowed.

I don't agree 100% with this statement. Afterglow won't fix your DPS if don't have the gear to back it up.

This x one million. People rush to the REMA and then get stuck doing shitty damage because they ignored their gear required to support it. Zulfiqar (or Montes) + Good gear is far superior to AG Rag + Shitty / Mediocre gear. All that time and money people dump on a REMA when it has one of the lowest return on investments.
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 Fenrir.Skarwind
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By Fenrir.Skarwind 2017-04-23 13:29:24
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Bismarck.Firedemon said: »
Fenrir.Skarwind said: »
Rag or any melee relic/mythic/empy is a paper weight until it is afterglowed.

I don't agree 100% with this statement. Afterglow won't fix your DPS if don't have the gear to back it up.

This x one million. People rush to the REMA and then get stuck doing shitty damage because they ignored their gear required to support it. Zulfiqar (or Montes) + Good gear is far superior to AG Rag + Shitty / Mediocre gear. All that time and money people dump on a REMA when it has one of the lowest return on investments.

I was comparing weapons to weapons. A 224 DMG weapon is going to suck compared to Zulf/Monte. What was lost in translation? A 224DMG rag is a paper weight until upgraded. That is what I was trying to say.
These weapons are basically useless until completed.

My comment was aimed at Star who was dissapointed with his base 119 relic.

Using appropriate gear is a given.
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By Chyula 2017-04-23 14:05:18
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Idris is not paper weight without AG!
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By Blazed1979 2017-04-23 14:13:16
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Chyula said: »
Idris is not paper weight without AG!
they said melee R/E/M. But not like GEO's cant whip it out and swing if they feel like it.
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By Afania 2017-04-23 14:31:52
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Asura.Starfishsky said: »
so i made my ragnarok its on the last step of 119 but i need those 10,000 plutons. i tried to test the weapon anyway and see how does it fair at it's current state.

i got to say i am very disapointed in many ways, and i hope the final thing will be more usefull than this.

compared to my zulfiqar with +25 dmg augment, the ragnarok with with dmg 224 i found the dmg was about 1/3rd if not less.

my zulfigar can do at least 12k and upto 22k on revives in marjami revive, when i tried ragnarok it did 4.5k and maxed at 6.9k

I find it a bit strange, i spend more than a month working on this weapon and it's still useless without AG, how does this make any sense? and if i get the AG, is it really gona be better than zulfigar? as zulfigar has more dmg and more delay so faster TP.

In this game, certain REMA are more game changing and offers greater improvements, certain REMA offers less.

Even with AG, for WAR, Rag isn't massive upgrade to your DPS unlike almace for CDC blu, Cala for DRK, fomalhaut for shooting cor or Lionheart for DD RUN. Aeonic is actually more of a game changing weapon for WAR (IMO) since it opens up the ability to multi step radiance. On the other hand other WAR GS options are very competitive to rag, unless you need massive amount of acc.

tl;dr you just happened to pick a less game changing REMA to work on, that is. And you probably aren't going to see massive DPS increase with AG in most of the properly buffed situations. It only gives you a free pass to PUG because people and their unhealthy "REMA only" mentality. Always do research about what a REMA really do to a job before working on it if you don't want to be disappointed after it's done.
 Leviathan.Sidra
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By Leviathan.Sidra 2017-04-23 14:42:55
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So...I read this occasionally on the forums here and on reddit. And it has been so far from what I have experienced in game, I finally am just going to ask. What is this REMA only PUG mentality? Who has it, and where are they?

I started playing in September on a new account after not having played for 9 years. Not once in all of my time back have I joined a shout for SR, Ambuscade, Escha, or anything else has anyone ever asked what weapon I have. Not once, ever. Nor have I ever asked. I can't figure out how something I have not even witnessed once seems so commonplace or normal to others.
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By Sylph.Padisharcreel 2017-04-23 15:02:41
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The height of the REM only shouts was towards the end of voidwatch era going into the beginning of Adoulin. I haven't done any pugging in years, and I'm also on a really small server, but those days seem to have died out a few years ago.
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 Fenrir.Skarwind
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By Fenrir.Skarwind 2017-04-23 16:03:25
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Sylph.Padisharcreel said: »
The height of the REM only shouts was towards the end of voidwatch era going into the beginning of Adoulin. I haven't done any pugging in years, and I'm also on a really small server, but those days seem to have died out a few years ago.


Sadly it still happens here. All though it's "AG DD ONRY"
 Asura.Starfishsky
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By Asura.Starfishsky 2017-04-23 20:51:14
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Leviathan.Sidra said: »
So...I read this occasionally on the forums here and on reddit. And it has been so far from what I have experienced in game, I finally am just going to ask. What is this REMA only PUG mentality? Who has it, and where are they?

I think it's mostly an asura thing right now, i spent some time in bahamount this year and there was nothing like that. i guess we tend to look for blue or reema if we want to farm something really fast, if the queue for ambuscade is low for instance, but lately i think it's SMN ONRY for most hard things.

if your on a less populated server, don't think u got this to worry about such things.
 Leviathan.Eloc
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By Leviathan.Eloc 2017-04-25 13:24:04
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Hey can anyone post an Ukko's Fury set? I'm pretty underwhelmed with my damage using it compared to Upheaval. Thanks in advanced.
 Asura.Starfishsky
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By Asura.Starfishsky 2017-04-28 06:00:01
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Eloc, the best ukko i did was like 17k today i think.( not reema weapon ) as in this image:


my set is pretty simple, as much DA as possible ofcourse, a little triple attack, my mantle is dbl attack+10 as well, and as much str as possible. here is my set from my lua file ( keep in mind its not the best by any means, this is what i can aford now )

{
ammo="Ravager's Orb",
head="Flam. Zucchetto +1",
body="Sulevia's Plate. +1",
hands="Sulev. Gauntlets +2",
legs="Pumm. Cuisses +2",
feet="Pumm. Calligae +2",
neck="Fotia Gorget",
waist="Fotia Belt",
left_ear={ name="Moonshade Earring", augments={'Attack+4','TP Bonus +25',}},
right_ear="Brutal Earring",
left_ring="Ifrit Ring +1",
right_ring="Ifrit Ring +1",
back={ name="Cichol's Mantle", augments={'STR+20','Accuracy+20 Attack+20','STR+6','"Dbl.Atk."+10',}}
}

hope this helps!
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By Blazed1979 2017-04-28 07:15:45
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Leviathan.Eloc said: »
Hey can anyone post an Ukko's Fury set? I'm pretty underwhelmed with my damage using it compared to Upheaval. Thanks in advanced.
Long story short - its complicated. You should be seeing Uko's fury slightly below Upheavel. Overtime, that gap grows significantly. Sad to say. Especially since it was my favorite ws in game. Upheaval produces more consistent results. You might see some ridiculous spikes from Uko's Fury. But they've become rarer.

You can setup your buffs and party to favor Uko's fury, and it will do very well. But you would get more output by setting up for Upheavel, and it takes a lot less coordination.

I only use Uko's if I am using Ukon, and start with 300% tp for the AMIII for a good increase in white dmg and spam Upheavel. But for that situational zerg with other dps,i'm better off using ragnarok/mighty strikes and spamming resolution. If I am solo DD I'm better off using Chango and only incorporating uko's fury as 5 step SC set up for radiance.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-04-28 07:38:49
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I've gotten Ukko's to do respectable damage but only during Blood Rage, and even then Upheaval does so much more once you really start tweaking gear sets. With Chango King's Justice will do more then Ukko's, especially with Warcry up.

If WAR's really want to see KJ / Upheaval's benefits they need to make two gear sets, one for under 2K WS TP, then another for 2K+ WS TP. Later if I get a chance I'll upload the rest of my WS sets into FFXIAH, though please understand I'm constantly tweaking those.
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By Blazed1979 2017-04-28 08:31:17
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Asura.Saevel said: »
I've gotten Ukko's to do respectable damage but only during Blood Rage, and even then Upheaval does so much more once you really start tweaking gear sets. With Chango King's Justice will do more then Ukko's, especially with Warcry up.
That's pretty much the coordination aspect i was touching on. Cycling Blood rage between two wars. but like you said, better results and less stress warcry cycling between same two wars.

Would the pre-nerf Uko's fury be competitive if they reverted back to it? or is that still not enough?
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By Asura.Fiasko 2017-04-28 09:34:37
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Asura.Saevel said: »
I've gotten Ukko's to do respectable damage but only during Blood Rage, and even then Upheaval does so much more once you really start tweaking gear sets. With Chango King's Justice will do more then Ukko's, especially with Warcry up.

If WAR's really want to see KJ / Upheaval's benefits they need to make two gear sets, one for under 2K WS TP, then another for 2K+ WS TP. Later if I get a chance I'll upload the rest of my WS sets into FFXIAH, though please understand I'm constantly tweaking those.

I assume you just tweeked the tp/moonshade style rule to equip a different set above 2k tp?
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-04-28 09:55:36
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Blazed1979 said: »
Would the pre-nerf Uko's fury be competitive if they reverted back to it? or is that still not enough?

Not close, Ukko's "nerf" was extremely small, it was VS that got hit a bit hard. The nerf centered around adjusting the crit rate TP anchor points and reducing Blood Rage from +20% Crit Damge +20% Crit rate to only +20% Crit Rate. Job Points increase it to +40% Crit rate so we're back to about where we were before.

Current Ukko TP Growth

https://www.bg-wiki.com/index.php?title=Ukko's_Fury&oldid=210465

Went from
30 / 50 / 80 to
25 / 35 / 55

So 1000TP Ukko's was hardly changed, 2~3K Ukko's had it's crit rate growth drastically reduced. But.. we could already hit capped or near capped crit rate so the actual impact was small. We start with 5% base floor, then another 5% from merits, then various percentages from gear and now another 10% from gifts. We're talking 20~40% crit before adding the WS TP Bonus or Blood Rage. Ukko's is primarily hurt from it's low fTP total which puts a limit on how much damage you can pump it up to. Compare it to something like Resolution or Vorpal Blade, both can have their damage dramatically enhanced from WAR's biggest strength, ***tons of multi-attack. WAR has so much natural DA that "Occasionally Attacks Once" really is a thing.

The reason Ukko's seemed so "powerful" was that it was released during the era of Abyssea with Raised Ruin adding 30% Crit Rate, 30% Crit Damage and +50 DEX which helped cap dDEX for more crit rate. So you essentially had capped crit rate with lots of +crit damage, only inside abyssea.

Now lets compare it to something like Upheaval

1000TP regular Weapon (1250 WSTP)
1.5 First hit
1.0 x 3 Extra Hits
1.0 x 1~3 (Multi-Attack procs)

so 5.5 fTP total spread out across many hits

1000TP Chango Weapon (1750 WSTP)
2.875 First Hit
1.0 x 3 Extra Hits
1.0 x 1~3 (Multi-Attack procs)

6.875 fTP total spread out but with a large amount on the first hit

1000TP regular Weapon with Warcry up (1950 WSTP)
3.375 First Hit
1.0 x 3 Extra Hits
1.0 x 1~3 (Multi-Attack procs)

7.375 fTP total spread out but that first hit is getting bigger, +WSD starts to become very important here.

1000TP Chango with Warcry up (2450 WSTP)
4.85 First Hit
1.0 x 3 Extra Hits
1.0 x 1~3 (Multi-Attack procs)

8.85 fTP total spread out with over half from that first hit, +WSD extremely potent here.

3000TP Max with whatever combo
6.5 First Hit
1.0 x 3 Extra Hits
1.0 x 1~3 (Multi-Attack procs)

10.5 fTP total with most coming from that first hit

TP overflow really helps Upheaval, not as much as Resolution and it's still best to spam at 1000. The WS is still clearly better then Ukko's, especially if the user takes time to make two different gear sets and know when to use each. Low TP for when your WSTP is under 2000, and a High TP one for when your WSTP is 2K+. WSTP is CurrentTP + TPBonus and that "2K" value can be as low as 1200~1250 for Chango users or just 1K for Chango + Warcry. And Mighty Strikes does silly ***to Upheaval, almost as much as what it does for Resolution with the difference being all the SC's Great Axe is able to produce. I've done 99K Fusions to 99K Lights to 99K Raidances before.
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-04-28 10:07:05
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Asura.Fiasko said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »
I've gotten Ukko's to do respectable damage but only during Blood Rage, and even then Upheaval does so much more once you really start tweaking gear sets. With Chango King's Justice will do more then Ukko's, especially with Warcry up.

If WAR's really want to see KJ / Upheaval's benefits they need to make two gear sets, one for under 2K WS TP, then another for 2K+ WS TP. Later if I get a chance I'll upload the rest of my WS sets into FFXIAH, though please understand I'm constantly tweaking those.

I assume you just tweeked the tp/moonshade style rule to equip a different set above 2k tp?

Don't have access to my gearswap right now but I had to code it a bit differently because WAR has Moonshade, Chango and Warcry in various combinations for TP Bonus's. To make it reusable a built a small section of that checks for each and adds them together.

Kinda like (pseudo code)

At top of precast
Code
TPBonus = 0 # zero out the bonus
TPBonus = TPBonus + 250 # Moonshade is assumed

If Main Weapon = Chango then
TPBonus = TPBonus + 500
End

If BuffActive Warcry then
TPBonus = TPBonus + 700
End


Then during Upheaval check, nested IF's because I like to debug explicitly stated gear swaps and not moonlogic madness.
Code
If WS = Upheaval then
CurrentTP = Player.TP + TPBonus
If CurrentTP >= 2000 then
Equip(WS.Upheaval.WSD)
Else
Equip(WS.Upheaval.DA)
End

Elseif Next WS / blah blah
End


I actually have send_command echos inside these checks that I turn on to let me know it processed the rule, the logic worked and my gearset actually equipped. The only snag is I can't find way to differentiate between my own Warcry, with it's TP Bonus, and someone else's Subjob Warcry without.
 Asura.Fiasko
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By Asura.Fiasko 2017-04-28 10:30:23
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Thanks for the reply. True, I have AGConq but am in the process of doing Chango now so hoping to play around with the upheaval sets some more.
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-04-28 10:39:04
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Well Conq you can use KJ to do similar things. KJ is just like Upheaval but STR based on Conq adds 30% to it.

https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/King's_Justice

1000TP Regular (1250 WSTP)

1.5 First Hit
1.0 x 2 Extra Hits
1.0 x 1~3 (Multi-Attack procs)

4.5 fTP

1000TP Conq (1250 WSTP +30% DMG)

4.5 fTP * 1.3 = 5.85

1000TP Conq + Warcry (1950 WSTP +30% DMG)
2.9 First Hit
1.0 x 2 Extra Hits
1.0 x 1~3 (Multi-Attack procs)

5.9 fTP * 1.3 = 7.67

3000TP Conq (Max +30% DMG)
5.0 First Hit
1.0 x 2 Extra Hits
1.0 x 1~3 (Multi-Attack procs)

8 fTP * 1.3 = 10.4

That's without adding Belt / Gorget which are a slight increase.

Conq WAR spamming KJ can do similar things as Rag WAR spamming Resolution using similar gear. I'm building a Conq now just to screw around with this.
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