The 6th Ministry's Secret: A Summoner's Guide

What kind of set do you use for Odin? SMNskill? Physical BP? Magical BP? Hybrid?

For Odin and Odin II I use ifrit or garuda. Granted nirvana wrecks stuff all the time, ill be doing 7-11k every now and then. Ill use physical bp set. Magic works as well but ive heard levi is better for that. Smn skill wont help except for ES

Think he is talking about summoning Odin lol
In which case,


and


It does magic burst as well but does no bonus damage.

I'd suggest BP damage > TP Bonus > Magic Acc > Magic Attack. Don't know if MAB effects it.

Blood Pact Delay can be lowered to 37 seconds not 40. relic body and feet are bp delay II taking off 3 addition seconds. Keraunos been seen with -5 perp and high mab augs for smn on same staff. You can also make a much better cure pot set though I'm not on game right now to check pieces on though the arkvan body and Phalaina locket comes to mind . Dalmatica can be augmented with 5 fast cast 2% quickcast also as a fast cast item.

Don't bother with TP Bonus, the Caller's Spats +2 are broken, they only work on merit BPs. I reported the bug a while ago but they haven't done anything about it: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/41071

Oh what strange priorities for Odin, I might have to build a set specifically for it. Thanks!


@Acacia
Wasn't the Caller's+2 issue solved? Have you re-tested recently? I thought it was working for healing BPs at least.
And I thought it was the TP bonus what was broken (ManaCede wasn't working either) and not the Callers+2 pants themselves.

Yeah, they are working on healing BPs for me... Though maybe not Carby's but Garuda and Leviathan's have a healing boost when Caller's Spats+2 are worn.

Got avatar perpetuation-4 augment on Hagondes hands+1, worth keeping or not? Was going for Mab augment for other jobs tho...

You can easily get cap using better gear for the job, and that would take up the Regimen Mitten slot anyway. I would continue on your MAB quest.

Thank you for the quick response!

Keep in mind that IF they continue on their announced idea (which was just a vague idea) they will be changing Avatar's Favor from the current form (-stats on avatar, -perp on master) to a different form (+stats on avatar, +perp on master)

Having avatars cost more MP per tic means that we're gonna need more avatar perp- gear.
If I were you I'd keep the Hagondes Gloves temporarily and get a new pair of Hagondes Gloves and try to get Mab on those new ones.

Am I the only one who does NOT want Hastega2?
I'd much rather have Hastega adjusted so that it works like indi/geo-Haste... I mean, that's sorta how our buffing BPs work already... Just that they cap too low.
Can adjust everyone's variable buff BPs so that they tier to 500+.
(Given how Atomos was delayed... I'm expecting Him and Cait Sith's 75+ BPs AND "Hastega2" to be in the same update... Though if they made Hastega work like GEO's haste bubbles... That would also give them reason to fix the other variable buffs we have...)

MAB Staff or Nirvana for Flaming Crush?

Also, what makes Spinning Dive ever better than Predator Claws?

Nirvana for Flaming Crush (and pretty much all other BPs).

Spinning Dive for mobs weak against piercing, Predator Claws for mobs weak against slashing. I don't think there is a real difference between the two besides damage type and number of hits.

As far as I am aware, Spinning dive is slashing damage.
Unless they have changed the properties of the pact somewhere.

Here's a series of questions, if anyone feels like satisfying my curiosity.

1. So based on the formula for Flaming Crush damage...

(6*(100+MAB)/100 +8)*(1+bpdamage%/100)

Nirvana beats MAB staffs for damage right? Or, at least, it seems very close, but then the avatar level pushes it over?

2. Dia II is -26/256 defense reduction (10%). That means it is, for all intents and purposes, an increase in attack to the avatar for melee and physical BPs equivalent to the defense lost by the monster? I never really notice a difference in damage from this nor Crimson Howl (it may be small or due to the fact that avatar damage ranges so wildly).

Attack/Defense ratio caps out at 2.0 for avatars right? So if my avatar had double the enemy's defense in attack, that would be the maximum achievable damage versus that target, and more attack would do nothing, correct? And if an avatar is only doing ~2k physical blood pacts (Predator Claws) against an enemy, that is simply due to a lack of attack or also because of STR (unfixable)? Wouldn't Shell Crusher also greatly assist in fixing the avatar's damage issues against the target?

3. How would one quantify the damage increase on Flaming Crush for attack? Is +MAB simply better point for point over attack (presuming attack/defense ratio isn't capped)?

Flaming Crush seems to do poorly against higher level enemies, to an extreme degree (falling off below predator claws). Does enemy MDB affect the magical damage of Flaming Crush (I assume yes)? Against other mobs without MDB (non-boss) what is the cause of this low damage? Is it simply due to a lack of ATK, causing the damage to fall (would more ATK fix this)? Is the magical damage of Flaming Crush based off of the physical portion of the first hit, and if so, wouldn't this make stacking ATK and MAB in unison useful to fix ratio and then have MAB scale the damage? Does magic accuracy have anything to do with the magical portion of Flaming Crush?

4. What makes Spinning Dive an attractive option against higher level enemies over Predator Claws? When and why would you use Spinning Dive over Predator Claws, when it seems Predator Claws outperforms it in damage?

5. Why does Predator Claws generally do more damage than all other avatar physical BPs at that level? Is it because of the 3 hit nature, or simply because it has better modifiers/base damage (why does it beat Eclipse Bite when Fenrir has more attack)? In addition, do the other BPs (Spinning Dive, Mountain Buster, Rush, etc) share the same damage and modifiers, or are they all different (and the other ones are just worse in comparison)?

6. Presuming TP isn't capped, how would one quantify the TP bonus on Caller's Spats into MAB? Is Caller's Spats just always better in this situation (non-capped TP), or does it vary based on gear? What would it take for them to be outperformed (Ngen Serawheels BP dmg, Hagondes Pants MAB, etc)?

7. Is Nirvana any good for magical (merit, possibly others) BPs, or is it simply worse than something like a Balsam or augmented Keruanos?

8. Does pet double attack do anything for blood pacts?

According to wiki, you are correct.

My mistake.

To answer question 4 as that is the only answer to which I can give a conclusive answer;

On high level content Spinning dive results in a higher damage return when using Physical pacts.

Spinning dive is generally concluded to be the Blood pact which is the most accurate one of the physical blood pacts.
Apart from that, due to its slashing properties also the least resisted one of the one hitters.
(The other being Mountain buster which is Impact/Blunt damage)

While Predator claws has a higher damage potential, as a 3 hitter its damage is greatly reduced if even one of the 3 hits misses, which usually is the case on high level content.

What makes spinning dive any more accurate than, say, Predator Claws?

And while predator claws is 3 hits, Spinning Dive is only 1 hit. Technically it would be debateable whether you want to gamble a 5% miss to lose ALL your damage, or risk losing 1, maybe 2 hits of a Predator Claws and only suffering a damage loss rather than losing all your damage.

Don't know, I don't have exact numbers.

However speaking of a (virtual) 5% missing chance it is a 5% chance to miss on Spinning dive versus a 5% missing chance on each of the 3 hits plus a 5% chance for the blood pact (All 3 hits) to miss entirely.

It wouldn't be a 5% chance for the blood pact to miss entirely. It would have to roll and fail three seperate 95% rolls to miss entirely.

There's a higher chance than Spinning Dive that the damage will be reduced in some way (the 5% chance to miss is being given 3 opportunities), but if it does happen, it won't be reduced to 0.

Although, that also is a question of whether all 3 hits are equal damage, or if the first hit is more damage than the other two.

Yes. Nirvana is pretty much the best BP staff in the game.
Period.
+40%dmg on top of any other MAB you can in other slots = ungodly. (especially cause Hagondes boots start with +25)
You also have the +2lv you mentioned, which adjusts the BP to higher tiers... cause I don't want to say "level correction" is a part of BPs, but level IS a determining factor in the calculations. (and with Nirvana level=121)

+atk on avatars, with the gear currently, often drops +%dmg... which is just a dumb idea since Avatars have a naturally high attack, and their pDIF ratio caps low like you said... not to mention that +X% is just strictly better than a measly +25atk.

As for Flaming Crush, +%dmg and MAB. Atk contributes very little to any and all BPs and FC has the benefit of having a magical hit in addition to the physical, so MAB greatly boosts the damage compared to atk.

I don't know why your Flaming Crushes are doing so poorly? Mine go further than Predator Claws... Perhaps you're just not playing the weakness game right? (using Crush on a blunt or fire resistant mob, for example; using Claws on a slashing mob and then comparing them.)
Using Flaming Crush on higher MDB mobs (like say Kumhau) even poops out more damage than Meteorstrike... with similar gear.
This is most likely due to the fact that the BP is phys and magic, so the magic term is reduced but the phys terms boost the damage to compensate.(just my speculation based on the near universal FC>MS I've had on Kumhaus)

Slashing and a bunch of stuff is weak to slashing.
It's seems to have a really good modifier compared to Predator Claws. (think along the lines of multi-hit WSs' fTP mods vs single hit ones)
And since 95% of Predator Claws' damage is in the first hit... Lord only knows why SE thought THAT was a good idea...
Missing the first hit of Predator Claws is basically the same as missing all of Spinning Dive. (cause let's face it... 100~300dmg might as well be 0 in the face of millions of HP)
Plus, Leviathan is MUCH more survivable than Garuda... who has the defense of a smn... And given the rampant RNGness of the current meta, Garuda's Hastega isn't worthwhile. (though for stuff with MNKs, and once they adjust it so that Hastega works like indi/geo-haste, Garuda will have more use.)
Plus Leviathan can pop out a nice -atk on the mob.

I.... don't understand why you are having this?
All the 75 level BPs deal about the same for me. Sure there's a bit of variability based on hybridness and weaknesses... but they're all about the same.

I think "Garuda is teh best" mentality is a leftover from the days where people thought MAB gear affected BPs and that the Avatars are BLMs.
Predator Claws is really good, and if you're using it on mobs weak to slashing, you'll find its damage greater than a non-slashing BP.
(no idea why your Fenrir's Eclipse Bite is being so lackluster, they should be the same, perhaps you need more skill/acc?)

As for modifiers, BPs are WS. Each is unique unto itself, but that does not preclude that numbers won't be used again.

BPs are WSs.
The TP bonus from Caller's is just like a Moonshade with TP bonus.
It's not a MAB thing, it's a fTP ajdustment.
And it's a +500TP one at that... so it's very potent.
As for Hagondes... why you gonna waste millions on making a BLM's pants work for SMN? I've never understood that.
ESPECIALLY when we have access to MAB in other slots. And just like with Nirvana: having as much of all three effects (MAB, +%dmg, TP bonus) will always wind up giving you the best results for magical BPs. (barring, of course, 3000TP)
I have no idea what it would take for them to be outperformed... but given how they're gonna be iLvd soon... Chances are that the benefits for using Ngen for magical BPs (more Macc from more Skill) will be "nerfed".... cause if all the Relic+2>>>109 is any indication... Caller's Spats are likely to have anywhere from +12 to +15 skill on them... And that's not even thinking about the potential TP bonus increase....
Basically: Ngen could perform close, but barring holding for 3000TP, Caller's will be more useful overall.

Nirvana is God.
Period.
+40% and +2lv will beat out the +100MAB from staffs... assuming that's not the ONLY source of MAB you have.
And since we have many other slots of MAB gear...
The more MAB AND +%BPdmg you stack, the more damage you will do.
These are all multiplicative terms.
And in terms of magical BPs think of it this way:
TP Bonus boosts the base damage (if <3000TP), then MAB multiplies the damage by the MAB/MDB ratio, then +X%BPdmg is multiplied on that.
BPs are WSs, though only the magical ones are affected by TP. (either the physical ones have a static fTP at all levels or they aren't affected at all... given that they're TP moves too.... I'm betting it's a static fTP much like Extenterator and other WSs)

EDIT: Also, don't forget to stack as much skill and Macc as you can for them too. I've found that Caller's Doublet is better than Convoker's because even though it's 2% less BPdmg boost... the +10skill on Caller's generates more consistent hits from having more skill... thereby making more damage overall.

I am actually not sure about that.
If it does, it would only be for physical BPs.... obviously.
But I honestly can't recall if it does or not.....
A part of me wants to say no.... but then the most of me responds with "but they ARE WSs... and those are affected by Q/T/DA..."
But I honestly have no idea.

It may cap low, but when are we ever reaching that cap? Beyond that, you didn't really answer the rest of my question there. I'm also considering melee swings as well.


Well, I've heard that supposedly the damage of the magical hit is based on the damage of the physical hit. So, increasing the attack would then lead into an increase for magical damage, and then multiplied further by MAB and BP%... increasing the base (ATK) would be worthwhile.

And yeah, it seems to underperform. For example, I can hit Shadow Lord for about 2500 predator claws, but a flaming crush does like 400 or 800. This goes for ANY high-tier boss for me, or even just a tough mob in general. Once they start getting high level, Flaming Crush seems to drop really hard. Predator Claws does as well of course, but Predator Claws is ahead.


It goes for any mob. I just got out of bhaflau salvage and I used both Leviathan and Garuda on a Wamoura. Leviathan's spinning dive did 5600 and then 7100. Garuda's Predator Claws did 7500 and 8000. I've seen it do up to 10000 on mobs, but Leviathan's spinning dive always falls short in comparison, regardless of the mobs I've tested both on.

I use both Eclipse Bite and Predator Claws on the same mobs. Eclipse Bite is always weaker, despite Fenrir having more ATK than Garuda. Same gear, not missing, multiple BP usages to see damage ranges. I could be like REALLY WRONG or REALLY UNLUCKY (more people to chime in on this would be nice), but it's been that way since the beginning. Predator Claws always does the most damage of all the physical BPs for me.


I would use them for Flaming Crush at the very least. Currently my only option for this is Convoker pants for accuracy. In a situation where I don't need accuracy, more MAB on the pants would make Flaming Crush stronger. There's simply no better options that I have, and more damage is more damage. If I had Ngen Seraweels, I would probably be using those, but I don't, and Legion is like impossible to get a group for, let alone have the pants drop and win them from the alliance. It might happen, some day...


Why does the opening post use Astralwatcher for magical and Nirvana for physical? I thought I heard elsewhere as well that the +~120 MAB beats out Nirvana... but if that's not the case, then sweet, Nirvana is awesome.

I was just talking about BPs, because gear for BPs =/= gear for idle.
And it's about the boon it gives, +atk only affects the BP by capping pDIF, while +%dmg is a straight damage boost.
So for BPs Nirvana reigns supreme....
If we're talking about AAs... I actually think the 119JSE might pull ahead of Nirvana, because while Nirvana increases atk Lv... the 119JSE has +25acc and +3%haste...
But... personally I don't think that the delta of idling in Gridarvor vs idling in Nirvana is really gonna be THAT different.

Again, it's about using the multiple stats. You want as much of all relevant stats for every BP... But the potency for each is: %dmg>MAB>TPbonus>atk
If you're deciding slotwise, and the choice is an atk hagondes or convokers... Using convokers will see a greater potency. (for physical)
I'm not saying use ONLY %dmg, or ONLY atk... you should have as much as you can of it all... but the potency of +%dmg is MUCH bigger than the potency of +atk.

As for MAB v Atk on Crushes... MAB is multiplicative.
Even though +atk will increase pDIF, which will increase the physical attacks, that is a much smaller boon than straight up +%damage that MAB (basically) offers.
But you will want to have a mix of both. (though if you're debating a MAB staff vs a Atk staff, use the MAB one... Tumafyrig with either a path B or C aug is GREAT for this.)

That is really weird. >_>
I honestly have no idea why your crushes are so low?
What gear are you using for it, if I might ask? (include sachet so I have a gauge of power levels)
All of my "75" BPs scale about the same... So it must be something in your BP set that's making such a large disparity in damage.

hmmm.... idr if Wamouras are weak to slashing... I don't think they are, but iirc the Wamouras in Salvage have a MASSIVE damage taken weakness... (it's almost as if they have 0DEF)
So that disparity is easily pointed out that because of the multi-hit on a mob that has a severe weakness, the multihit will win out.
Just from each hit getting +X% to them from the way Wamouras work in Salvage.

The Fenrir thing is concerning though.... That's not how it should be... You must be getting whiffs in his 3hit if he's massively lower than Garuda.
That was one of the reasons why Fenrir was so favored back in the day: easier to cap perp (when that was a thing) and higher base atk making his BPs do more damage.
There must be wiffs in there.
(Garuda has also been heavily favored due to the lack of wind resist and hastega)

Yes, actually having things does make a difference... but if your Crushes are so low, it might be a good idea to use the convokers or even the callers spats... (it's not as much, but skill => acc)
And is cheaper than trying to get a perfect MAB augment... which unless you're doing LOTS of skirmish, and you very well might be, it's gonna be hard to get that MAB.

It's a numbers game.
As to why it's in the OP, for whom I can't speak for, this is a guide. Guides are not absolutes, they are just there to help you.
And as such, are guidelines and not "do this or fail".
It's also a personal preference.
As well as ease of obtaining the items.
As well as when you use SMN.
On ***mobs, MAB will win out. But on Mobs with massive MDBs, like Delve2 MegaBosses, +%BPdmg will be better.

I'm lazy, so I gear my BP macros for the highest end content I do on SMN. Sure, I would probably see higher numbers on mandies outside of Windurst if I were to use Astralwatcher or the new skirmish staff, over Nirvana... but.... why bother?

On content where the MAB is REALLY gonna see a massive boost to damage, you're not gonna care if your BPs do more than 20k. (which if it's content I'm thinking of, 20kish should be normal)
But for high-end content, straight damage boost will win out.

But again, I'm not saying it's one or the other. It's my personal preference to use Nirvana 100% of the time... even though for lower content Astralwatcher will perform better.
That's +1 inventory. And I have other jobs.
So you should have both, MAB and BPdmg... and you should try to find the best fit for your budget, patience, and time. (all of which is why Hagondes will live in BLM land for me... I don't have the money, time or patience for that. Besides, that takes away the slot for TP bonus.... and Flaming Crush can suck not having the leg MAB.)

So again, you want as much MAB and BPdmg as you can get for endgame stuff like Delve and HQ mission fights... but because these NMs have high MDB, MAB will be a smaller boon than a straight % increase.
But that doesn't mean no MAB! You want that too! lol
Just that with Nirvana vs MAB staff, Nirvana in high end will be better overall.

RIP Marduk's Shalwar

Adapa's Slacks +1
DEF:104 HP+11 MP+104 STR+24 VIT+12 AGI+17 INT+33 MND+23 CHR+18 Evasion+26 Magic Evasion+104 "Magic Def. Bonus"+5 Summoning magic skill +14 Haste+5% Spell interruption rate down 10%

http://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Adapa%27s_Slacks_%2B1

Yay

Besides that:

Esper Stone +1
Enmity-5 "Blood Boon"+3 "Elemental Siphon"+20 Pet: "Magic Atk. Bonus"+6

Argochampsa Mantle
DEF:13 Attack+12 "Magic Atk. Bonus"+12 Pet: Attack+12 Ranged Attack+12 "Magic Atk. Bonus"+12

Globidonta Ring
MP+20 MND+6 Divine magic skill +5 Enfeebling magic skill +5 Summoning magic skill +5

Accord Hat
DEF:92 HP+34 MP+51 STR+13 DEX+13 VIT+13 AGI+13 INT+18 MND+18 CHR+18 Evasion+34 Magic Evasion+72 "Magic Def. Bonus"+5 Haste+6% "Blood Pact" ability delay -9 Avatar perpetuation cost -2

Eidolon Pendant +1
MP+15 MP recovered while healing +6 Avatar: "Magic Atk. Bonus"+5

Is it gonna be worth to use Esper stone over Seraphicaller and lose 20 levels?


There are augments on JSE capes too.
Saw a SMN one with BP damage+

Esper only good for ES and yes, new random capes with random augms from incursion or w/e the new event is called.

Augments on JSE capes? Waaaah?

And the Esper Stone is a swap in for Siphon, and buffing wards if you also desire.

Yeah, it's an ES and buff piece.
Even on fodder the 20 levels will make tons more difference over 6 MAB.
The hat is meh, I'll take the +2 refresh from the Convoker's and BP recast time is capped with a combination of other pieces that have other uses so I wouldn't use it for that either.
Glob ring is nice, but not something I'll actively hunt.

The Slacks, mantle and pendant however...