Discrimination Against The Homeless

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Discrimination against the homeless
 Fenrir.Schutz
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By Fenrir.Schutz 2011-11-16 18:11:35
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Bahamut.Cuelebra said: »
zahrah said: »
Cuelebra,

/sigh

Read more argue less. I think you completely missed the second paragraph of my initial post, and if you would have read the third you would have seen that I agreed with you, but I'm still apprehensive. I don't think it's fair call someone ignorant because of what charities they choose.

Also, plenty of other people have said the same thing or have had similar thoughts. It kind of seems like you are overlooking other posts. It seems a little antagonistic. Just saying... :)
I read ur posts, i know u agreed with me. I wasn't referring to u in particular but just in general. My comment was referring to the general public's ignorance when it comes to transients and their mental health, as well as peoples "lack of knowledge"(ill use that term instead of ignorance) when it comes to hospitals/social services/shelters/food banks etc... turning them away due to lack of funding and capacity issues.

I agree if the individual is competent and sane s/he should seek out support outlets. However there is that percentage, and a very large one at that, that are not competent enough due to medical conditions to seek out social services, mental health services etc. That percentage should not be judged or pigeonholed as "lazy" by the general public under any condition.

Not to judge what you are saying, because it is truth, but you do realise that "5150" refers to section 5150 of the LPS Act from CA and actually affects CA, right?

I am not arguing against your experiences with the homeless or the mentally disordered homeless, but CA did create this situation for itself when it passed LPS in the late 70's. It did effectively put many people out onto the street to fend for themselves on their own cognizance when it is arguable they never should have been there.

That's certainly the reality facing CA, but to be fair not all states have the same sort of mental health doctrines. So it is equally-unfair to make generalities about other homeless groups on a national-level based on the differences in treatment in CA, I would think.
 Bahamut.Cuelebra
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By Bahamut.Cuelebra 2011-11-16 18:30:24
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Fenrir.Schutz said: »
Bahamut.Cuelebra said: »
zahrah said: »
Cuelebra,

/sigh

Read more argue less. I think you completely missed the second paragraph of my initial post, and if you would have read the third you would have seen that I agreed with you, but I'm still apprehensive. I don't think it's fair call someone ignorant because of what charities they choose.

Also, plenty of other people have said the same thing or have had similar thoughts. It kind of seems like you are overlooking other posts. It seems a little antagonistic. Just saying... :)
I read ur posts, i know u agreed with me. I wasn't referring to u in particular but just in general. My comment was referring to the general public's ignorance when it comes to transients and their mental health, as well as peoples "lack of knowledge"(ill use that term instead of ignorance) when it comes to hospitals/social services/shelters/food banks etc... turning them away due to lack of funding and capacity issues.

I agree if the individual is competent and sane s/he should seek out support outlets. However there is that percentage, and a very large one at that, that are not competent enough due to medical conditions to seek out social services, mental health services etc. That percentage should not be judged or pigeonholed as "lazy" by the general public under any condition.

Not to judge what you are saying, because it is truth, but you do realise that "5150" refers to section 5150 of the LPS Act from CA and actually affects CA, right?

I am not arguing against your experiences with the homeless or the mentally disordered homeless, but CA did create this situation for itself when it passed LPS in the late 70's. It did effectively put many people out onto the street to fend for themselves on their own cognizance when it is arguable they never should have been there.

That's certainly the reality facing CA, but to be fair not all states have the same sort of mental health doctrines. So it is equally-unfair to make generalities about other homeless groups on a national-level based on the differences in treatment in CA, I would think.

In the medical community the term "51/50" was adopted to describe a patient who fulfilled certain criteria. So rather than saying the patient is a manic and self-threatening, most medical-practitioners just say they're "51/50." Its become a more common term in the medical community due to a highly televised 51/50 patients (e.g. Britney Spears) being submitted.

I wasn't even born yet lol so i cant say about the 70's here in CA. However, you also have to understand CA has a huge population. In southern california, we also have the highest illegal immigrant population in the nation. HUGE contributing factor to our lack of funding. As a health-care provider, you cant prioritize a patient due to residency status in the emergency room. Problem is the hospital and support programs receive limited funding consequently. If we dont provide health-care services to illegal immigrants or homeless, we then release them back into the population risking the whole populations health safety....its a very sad vicious cycle.
 Fenrir.Schutz
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By Fenrir.Schutz 2011-11-16 18:46:28
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Bahamut.Cuelebra said: »
In the medical community rather than saying the patient is "insane" its become more pc to say they are "51/50." (im generalizing the 51/50 criteria because it more than just insanity) Its become a more common term in the medical community due to a highly televised 51/50 patients (e.g. Britney Spears) being submitted.

I wasn't even born yet lol so i cant say about the 70's here in CA. However, you also have to understand CA has a huge population. In southern california, we also have the highest illegal immigrant population in the nation. HUGE contributing factor to our lack of funding. As a health-care provider, you cant prioritize a patient due to residency status in the emergency room. Problem is the hospital and support programs recieve limited funding consequently...its a very sad vicious cycle.

Right...5150 actually refers to the specific section of the Lanterman/Petris/Short Act (law). LPS was designed to define a more modernised view of mental health, and with regard to patient well-being, sought (among other things) to end involuntary commitment to mental facilities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5150_%28Involuntary_psychiatric_hold%29

Section 5150 (which would later be used by health institutions and law enforcement personnel as a by-word, and later taken by popular culture) deals with those circumstances in which a person COULD be involuntarily committed (due to danger of risk to themselves or others) to a mental health care facility.

The point I was trying to make was that it's not a universal situation. While LPS did exist as a fore-runner for treatment in the US, not all states have the same requirements. As such, not all states will obligatorily have such large portions of their homeless populations as being diagnosed with mental health conditions, like they have in CA.

I live in San Jose, btw. :p I know people who have lived in Napa (as an example, because they had a very large mental health facility there) before the law was put into effect and say how much of an impact it has had over the years on homeless populations. San Jose is a huge metropolitan area, also, and it's common on a daily basis to see people downtown shouting in the streets at the top of their lungs because they aren't on their meds.

It's a sad condition, but again, it's not universal. So it is possible that other people's reactions to homeless individuals here (to assume a certain level of competence) won't necessarily be based on the same life experiences as those who might live in CA, no?
 Bismarck.Eburo
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By Bismarck.Eburo 2011-11-16 18:47:39
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I live in Houston, which I sometimes think of as the "city of opportunity ~ to screw over ignorant people"

In this case, by ignorant I mean not knowing.

As ashamed as I am to admit this, I make a judgment call every time I see a "homeless" person. I usually don't even pay attention to the ones standing on intersections with signs trying to get change from passing vehicles. Even the "I'm a Veteran and I'm homeless" types. It hurts a little, but I'm all too aware that there are *some* people out there who abuse the generosity of others.

It happened when I was a kid, and left a pretty lasting impression, was riding with my mother and she pulled over and gave a "homeless" man some food from McDonald's and a dollar or two in quarters to use a payphone. Then later that night we saw the same person standing outside of a bar smoking all dressed up with a fancy watch too.

So yes, I discriminate against the homeless, unless I'm truly convinced, but unfortunately on the other hand I'm passive aggressive and when they approach me to ask for money I'll just hand over a dollar anyways. (but only if it's in my pocket, I refuse to take out my wallet in front of a beggar)
 Bahamut.Cuelebra
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By Bahamut.Cuelebra 2011-11-16 20:43:12
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Fenrir.Schutz said: »
Bahamut.Cuelebra said: »
In the medical community rather than saying the patient is "insane" its become more pc to say they are "51/50." (im generalizing the 51/50 criteria because it more than just insanity) Its become a more common term in the medical community due to a highly televised 51/50 patients (e.g. Britney Spears) being submitted.

I wasn't even born yet lol so i cant say about the 70's here in CA. However, you also have to understand CA has a huge population. In southern california, we also have the highest illegal immigrant population in the nation. HUGE contributing factor to our lack of funding. As a health-care provider, you cant prioritize a patient due to residency status in the emergency room. Problem is the hospital and support programs recieve limited funding consequently...its a very sad vicious cycle.

Right...5150 actually refers to the specific section of the Lanterman/Petris/Short Act (law). LPS was designed to define a more modernised view of mental health, and with regard to patient well-being, sought (among other things) to end involuntary commitment to mental facilities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5150_%28Involuntary_psychiatric_hold%29

Section 5150 (which would later be used by health institutions and law enforcement personnel as a by-word, and later taken by popular culture) deals with those circumstances in which a person COULD be involuntarily committed (due to danger of risk to themselves or others) to a mental health care facility.

The point I was trying to make was that it's not a universal situation. While LPS did exist as a fore-runner for treatment in the US, not all states have the same requirements. As such, not all states will obligatorily have such large portions of their homeless populations as being diagnosed with mental health conditions, like they have in CA.

I live in San Jose, btw. :p I know people who have lived in Napa (as an example, because they had a very large mental health facility there) before the law was put into effect and say how much of an impact it has had over the years on homeless populations. San Jose is a huge metropolitan area, also, and it's common on a daily basis to see people downtown shouting in the streets at the top of their lungs because they aren't on their meds.

It's a sad condition, but again, it's not universal. So it is possible that other people's reactions to homeless individuals here (to assume a certain level of competence) won't necessarily be based on the same life experiences as those who might live in CA, no?


5150
I think ur a bit confused about what im saying. what ive said has nothing, i mean nothing to do with 5150 policy and detainment. when ANY doctor, phd, nurse says 5150 it just means a list of particular symptoms. (e.g. the patient is 5150, what steps should we take doctor?) If the hospital and social worker want to perform a 5150 involuntary hold that's a completely different issue.

im simply saying a that many homeless individuals suffer from manic depression, PTSD, schizophrenia, mental retardation, dementia(picking from 51/50 symptoms list) etc etc... and require medicated and cognitive treatment and are unable to receive such and thus end up on the streets indefinitely.

San Francisco ur neighbor across the bay bridge has the largest homeless population in the country from what i understand. Yes the tenderloin is very depressing to walk through day or night.
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By Raborn 2011-11-16 21:02:57
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Terrible appearance, smell like old cheese, tend to have a lack of education.

I got a citation a few years ago for an old van sitting in my yard for 3 months without being moved (yes it still ran).

You tell me if people are going to discriminate.
 Lakshmi.Greggles
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By Lakshmi.Greggles 2011-11-16 21:11:06
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Raborn said: »
Terrible appearance, smell like old cheese, tend to have a lack of education.

I got a citation a few years ago for an old van sitting in my yard for 3 months without being moved (yes it still ran).

You tell me if people are going to discriminate.

You don't think it's unfair to discriminate against someone who smells bad when they're clearly unable to keep themselves clean / looking good? That's a bit unfair isn't it?

I can understand when the person isn't homeless and has the ability to keep themselves clean and doesn't, but I feel like it's a bit different if the person is truly homeless.
 Phoenix.Fredjan
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By Phoenix.Fredjan 2011-11-16 21:32:40
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give them food, not money.
honestly you're just throwing money away if you give them money (they'll likely buy alcohol or drugs with it)
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By Raborn 2011-11-16 21:34:46
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Lakshmi.Greggles said: »
Raborn said: »
Terrible appearance, smell like old cheese, tend to have a lack of education.

I got a citation a few years ago for an old van sitting in my yard for 3 months without being moved (yes it still ran).

You tell me if people are going to discriminate.

You don't think it's unfair to discriminate against someone who smells bad when they're clearly unable to keep themselves clean / looking good? That's a bit unfair isn't it?

I can understand when the person isn't homeless and has the ability to keep themselves clean and doesn't, but I feel like it's a bit different if the person is truly homeless.

You are doing a report, you found people discriminated against those.
I once had a friend in high school who had bad hygiene (always smelled bad)was a few points short of being placed in special education. All of the "normal" folks wouldn't speak with him or avoided him all together. (His mother was in fact a special needs person, who managed to raise him and his sister on her own). I spoke with him daily, the funniest thing was even the people that would come around him tended to push away from him or not consider him as part of the "group."
Coincidentally there was another friend of mine who's hygiene was twice as bad and his IQ was much better, but people tried to stay as far the hell away from him as they could, probably because of his appearance, always wearing a long black trench coat had unkempt long hair and acne all over the place. No one ever "accepted" him into groups and always berated him when he spoke.
Now what is most fascinating is I ran into the first not too long ago selling newspapers on the side of the road with his mother to make extra money so they could put the daughter through college. Who unfortunately ran off with some marine she fell in love with and dropped out, and takes their money even though she's not in college any more. (he knows, but the mother doesn't).

So let me explain it out, since apparently cleverly hidden meanings are hogwash.
Homeless people tend to represent an archaic form of person. By modern day standings they do not meet the "standard" social requirements.
Therefore most people will most likely tend to or deem them as lesser beings.

I used my old van parked in my yard as a representation of that, one of my neighbors decided they didn't like looking at my van, so they called the cops and told them I was defiling the neighborhood with it an "Eye Sore." The cops came out, saw it was an old van, and immediately agreed with the social "standard" of how we as Americans, role models of the universe "ARE TO LIVE".
 Fenrir.Schutz
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By Fenrir.Schutz 2011-11-16 23:06:25
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Bahamut.Cuelebra said: »
5150
I think ur a bit confused about what im saying. what ive said has nothing, i mean nothing to do with 5150 policy and detainment. when ANY doctor, phd, nurse says 5150 it just means a list of particular symptoms. (e.g. the patient is 5150, what steps should we take doctor?) If the hospital and social worker want to perform a 5150 involuntary hold that's a completely different issue.

im simply saying a that many homeless individuals suffer from manic depression, PTSD, schizophrenia, mental retardation, dementia(picking from 51/50 symptoms list) etc etc... and require medicated and cognitive treatment and are unable to receive such and thus end up on the streets indefinitely.

San Francisco ur neighbor across the bay bridge has the largest homeless population in the country from what i understand. Yes the tenderloin is very depressing to walk through day or night.

Did you even get to read the wiki link? ;_; It's not what urbandictionary says it is...really. I used to work with SJPD and it was brought up one time (the origin of the term) and it's not what you are thinking it is--it's not a medical term or a police code, it actually refers to a section of a law. It's similar to how people refer to companies as being "in Chapter 13" (actually Chapter 13, Title 11 of the United States Code) or about their "401k" (actually section 401(k) of the Internal Revenue Code.)

It is a list of symptoms, but one to indicate when someone can be pulled off the street due to exhibited mental illness, as the law allows them on the street if they do not exhibit those symptoms. Please look at it, it's really interesting.

And again, I am not arguing with what you are saying at all. I am just pointing out everything you are saying when you say "many homeless individuals suffer from..." can easily be qualified with "...in California" afterwards.

Hopefully you get what I mean. ;_;
 Leviathan.Melisenna
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By Leviathan.Melisenna 2011-11-17 04:27:52
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Bahamut.Cuelebra said: »
I'd suggest u look at papers written about the general public's' view on psych patients, because the thesis and conclusion should be near identical. Reason i state this is the majority of homeless individuals suffer from manic depression, schizophrenia, PTSD(in the case of veterans) or other psychiatric conditions.
I agree hugely with this. Particularly in the areas around me, our mental health care is atrocious. It has a lot to do with the 'Deinstitutionalization of Mental Health Patients' that took place in the past when Asylums and various other Mental Health centres were deemed inhumane and negative places. So essentially they made an attempt to shift from keeping extremely unwell people who did need assistance in these places, to an approach that centered around outpatient and crisis services. So essentially these people show up, are cared for briefly (2-5 days) then tossed back out on their own.

Often they are left with no real resources or concrete solutions to improve their lives. They then have an inability to care for themselves, obtain their medications, places to live, and end up on the street, exhibiting signs of distressing mental health symptoms. They then often turn to self-destructing behaviours and repeat the entire process indefinitely. Generally after being tossed back into the Emergency Room for doing something deemed harmful to themselves or others. I see this every day as I work in an ER here.

I would say in downtown Toronto, roughly estimating, that 70% are people in need of Psychiatric care, 20% have just made poor life decisions and/or had horrible things happen to them whereby they have ended up homeless and about 10% are fakers (usually pretty easy to spot). Mind you there is a large amount of cross-over between all 3 of those groups.

Siren.Entrerie said: »
Here is the thing about this.....I am a psych assessment officer and if a homeless patient presents for a psychiatric evaluation they cannot be refused for the inability to pay. Also if they meet certain criteria they are to be admitted under mental health laws. Also they cannot be released unless they have a place to go , Shelter, family ect...
Heh, must be nice, this is definitely not standard practice here. It would reduce our homeless population drastically.


Where I currently live we maybe have 1-2 transient homeless people around, as it’s a relatively rich area and our police usually pick them up and leave them in other cities (horrible I know, but the truth).

When I went to University in Toronto, they were everywhere. All in all I found people to be incredibly cruel towards them, make demeaning/judgemental comments and often cross the street to avoid walking near them.

I personally liked to acknowledge their presence (they are humans after all), in a polite yet impersonal way. This did earn me some negative attention on occasion (such as being chased, followed, yelled at) but it’s just the type of person I am and the vast majority seemed to appreciate it. I often had nothing to offer them, as I was a broke-*** student, but on occasion would give food or a cigarette if I had something extra handy.

*edited for small typing mistakes due to my works ancient version of internet explorer making half of the part where you type disappear*
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