SCH Top Mage?

Irrelevant? How is MP efficiency irrelevant? It's the single reason RDM gets thrice the merit party invites over WHM for healing.

I never said it's the apocalypse for BLMs. I only said that I find it alarming that SCH can reach or possibly even oust the potential of BLM. I know full-well that in the grand majority of all realistic situations, BLM > SCH always. No one's debating this.

No, there's no reason to cry about it because I want to think that we all work together in MMOs instead of crying "*insert job* onry!" BLM will always have a place in this game, and even SCH is looked to more for its buffs and ridiculous mob control abilities than its nuking potential. I only brought up a point toward the OP's discussion; I'm not saying BLM should live in fear of this job, 'cause it really shouldn't.

It's all right. However, calling it irrelevant doesn't change the fact that this potential is still present within SCH. It most-certainly is not irrelevant. ;3

But, can Schs nuke that hard against mobs that actually matter? (I.e not lolmanaburns)

That's the real question!

I think we've stated several times that yes they can.

A SCH will never outdamage a BLM in something like Bahamut V2. Although they will keep a shitload more MP. ^^; SCH in general SE made overpowered. It's like the Ninja of mages. SE'll find a way to nerf it eventually.

End of the day, SCH is not as good at BLM as a BLM, its not as good at WHM as a WHM, and so on. Does it have its uses, yes, ofcourse and anyone who doubts this does not know SCH very well.

Can a well geared SCH outnuke a BLM, ofcourse, but that BLM would odviously not have as good as gear as the SCH for sure, simple as.

Now regarding SCH and its mp efficency, yes they may be more efficent, but personally I know I could go to a chain 5 nps on BLM, chain 6 with 2hr, even chain 7 if luck is on my side, and i'm sure there are people who can do better than I did (this is regarding M.Z Ebony Pudding camp) Can a SCH do this? From what ive seen, no.. not saying that they can't. Just saying its not something I have ever seen. Not saying this means SCH's are useless by any means, because I don't think SCH was designed to be able to do this, hence why they are a mix of all mages, and back to the original poster.

Are SCH's the best mage. In what way? Solo exp, events, exp party, I could go on... All jobs are have their areas where they are better than others, and SCH has its own I am sure, but is it the best mage, no, in my opinion it is not.

It's not a question of how hard they nuke. If a SCH can do more damage for a given MP pool than a BLM can just by being more efficient, that makes them the stronger nuker. The only thing stopping SCH right now is that our (BLM) natural traits and gear allow us to nuke with less resists.
EDIT: This mostly applies to party play. I'm guessing BLM remains the better soloer.

So what if SCH can nuke almost as good as BLM? I really don't see any of the servers, as a whole, saying "*** BLM, we'll get SCH's now". Seriously, why waste the energy worrying about it? It's like the RDM's crying about the WHM updates; they've been king of the hill for years now, it's about time someone else got some love, and we all know that RDM's are still gonna be the mage of choice in higher level parties. Just like BLM's will always be the nuker of choice...SAM will be the DD of choice, etc...

Yeah. People on this game are too one tracked in the head to see that there's a job that can do everything a WHM, RDM and BLM can, with the same down time as only a RDM itself. (Really none) But yeah, things have been like this for what, 7 years now? I don't see a drastic change in job priorities in the forseeable future.

Should there really be only one job that can be used for elemental damage? If so, let's get rid of all those other jobs and only have 1 job that can do piercing damage, one job that can do slashing damage, one job that can do blunt, one job that can cure. There, that was fun! Everyone is happy now, right? Oh, and let's take away tier 4 nukes from PUP, too.

Scholar cannot outnuke a BLM. Period. It is statistically impossible (unless you put Ebullience into the mix, but you get better mp efficiency by using Parsimony, see strategems below). The gear selection and job traits (namely, lack of natural MAB) simply do not allow it. SCH is tethered to its subjob more than any other job is (except for SMN), due to a lack of several key spells.

Yes, SCH does trump BLM in MP efficiency, until you compare it to BLM/SCH. In my standing gear, I have ~730MP as a hume (4 MP merits). I only save 10% MP under Dark Arts, would an extra 73 MP bring me close to what a BLM has for MP? The stat calcs I can find say no.

Yes, SCH has Sublimation. With AF head and Relic body, that makes us +4 per tick, comparable to RDM Refresh and an auto refresh body. Sublimation has a 30 second cooldown, making Refresh + auto refresh parse better.

The one thing SCH has that makes it "out perform" BLM is strategems. At 70+, you get 1 per minute. That's a lot more limiting than it sounds. If we want to swap between buffing and nuking with tier 4's, it costs us a strategem every time (and a 60s cooldown on light/dark arts), status removal is another strategem gone (unless we sub WHM). Our tier 2 merit strategems? Those require 2 charges.

Seriously. Do you go to TP burn merit camps to determine which DD is the best? Why are you doing it at manaburn camps? Yes, I can make bigger numbers pop up, spell for spell, if I use Ebullience. Otherwise, I do about 150~ damage less than a well an average geared BLM on puddings, and my low resist gear is as good as it gets for SCH (I could get a few extra points of int, but it wouldn't be enough to make up that amount of damage). I'm not that great at soloing puddings, but I can sometimes hit chain 4. If I were a taru, maybe things would be different.



SCH are ideal for low man situations. They're good buffers, they're functional healers and nukers. If you want the best of the best for HNM and other high resist situations, SCH is not there yet.

no hes right, if SCH rly had the best gear it would beat the best possible geared blm in DoT

Kaeko's page talks about how

no haste, gtfo.
no refresh, gtfo.
lolsch nukes [even with best gear, taru race and all the merits you can handle... you wont out DD me ;)]

The WHM buff will kick SCH out of that dept. once and for all, no questions. I see a BLM upgrade coming soon at this point to counteract this whole argument. The only reason they did this for WHM was to balance out the mage field.

SCH was meant to be a middle of the road mage more so than what RDM was. RDM made it's own niche to where you really couldn't compare it to the other jobs in this manner. SCH's main problem is that it can partially take the role of other jobs, given the right support around them.

In the end, I think they are done with SCH. Old jobs will get the refits they've been asking for, and SCH will better defined as it's own job.

I wouldn't call it a "problem" per se, having been working on SCH a lot recently I'm really liking the ability to flip back and forth. I was in a Quiffim party a couple days ago, PLD DNCx2 BLU BLM and me as SCH. With PLD tank and 2 DNC's, obviously healing was covered, so I got the opportunity to use Dark Arts, throw on some INT gear (glad I brought it with me, wasn't planning on it lol) and DD most of the night. BLM was obviously dealing more damage then I was, but I really liked being able to change what I was doing on the fly without having to go all the way home and change jobs.

I dunno, maybe I'm weird in the fact that I actually enjoy playing and partying with the hybrid classes. ^^

Its not a problem as in a job defect, but as the root of this argument. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Agreed whole heartedly. In pudding party with a decent geared BLM, (I'm not talking about moldy + zenith mitts, im talking Genie Weskit, Uggy pen, Morrigan's robe at minimum) IV nukes deal between 1.6-1.8k, where as my IVs of the same type were incredibly lucky to deal their minumum. (We we're both taru, with capped out elemental magic, HQ Staves and same day/weather, I had obi's, he didn't)

SCH can't out nuke a BLM in the long or short run, especially in anything that truly matters, a MB'ed Burst II on Fafnir for 2.3k dmg lol's at SCH's attempt to even get a decent unresisted Thunder IV. Its not a broken job, but it is a good one. To date, I haven't seen a truly broken job, because I've yet to see someone solo Odin, Kirin, Nidhogg, Dynamis Lord, or any number of NM's (I'm daring those RDM/NIN now :D)

Do WHM or BLM get Refresh?

They get a mini-convert with /SCH, however; Sublimation is not to be overlooked.

Yes it is, I can't use it on the PLD...

I guess the SCH can do many things, as long as it is geared, prepared, and in the right area. Like if I take my SCH to a HNM of course I'm not nuking I leave that to the BLM's, I would be healing/buffing the tank or the DD pt. If I'm in a manaburn of course I'll nuke, and for a meripo I'll heal/buff the pt. I think the SCH is good because we have all these things "All-In-One" job. Thats why I think the SCH is great.

depends on your gear, if good enough you can still nuke HNM with small resist rates, but most sch can't.

Hell, any good geared SCH will outpwn a lolblm anyday.

Never outpwn me though. Even if they have the best available gear possible, they will never outnuke me as I am now, even though I don't have the "best" gear a BLM can have. I can get better, just costs money and time which I don't have atm.

Go go Mog Bonanza!

i dont think SCH should out damage BLM, thats kinda gay. If they do, look forward to a SCH gimp update! Im no caster but BLM should stay atop the caster DDs

I'd rather see BLM buffed than SCH nerfed, honestly...even though I despise SCH. Also, I myself am taking BLM to 75 soon in spite of what I've been saying in this thread.

Like I said, though, SCH takes a lot more gear to be able to compete with BLM, so it's not realistic to say or think that SCH beats BLM on a per player basis. The only conceivable way SCH can oust BLM is on a damage per MP basis, assuming equal resist rates.

Considering BLM functions more as a damage per spell caster than a damage per MP caster like SCH, it would also be safe to say the two jobs are played (or at least should be played) very differently when blowing things up, as well...thus making the potential for SCH to outdo BLM situational at best.

lets look at what blms really do in pts. They help kill endgame stuff mostly HNMs or at least things that would take a tp burn too long or too much support. Now yeah wont be too aweful hard for a decent sch to floor there resist rates with good gear and merits especially with that new startegem. But you also got to remember that 1 if you nuke nuke nuke even with good tanks youll get hate so really the efficiency wont matter especially with brd or rdm or cor. Now tp management especially low manning things like kanican is huge and youll gear for gear merits for merits sch can never get the dmg to mob to tp given unless you count 1 helix plus lots of sch with merit modus veritas tricks.

I don't get some of the completely ignorant comments that get directed at SCH. Of course it can't perfectly fit the role of a WHM or BLM. Try putting it together with those jobs, though. There's some harmony that comes out when mages work together.

As a 75 sch myself with atm most of the best possible equipment i can get, I cannot out nuke my blm friends... however this is spike damage only. Sch using it's stratagems CAN out damage a blm overtime by tossing out more consistant nukes while all the blm are resting thier MP from tossing out 3 overprices huge spike damage burst II and freeze II. Due to it's consistancy it's 100% more efficient to gear it not with the best INT gear you can find but skill. Consistant damage > spike damage due to the massive resist rates spells can have. Your Freeze II means nothing if it resists... It's like missing a weaponskill lol. While scholar is not the best at spike nuke damaging... it is the most efficient at dealing damage overtime.

As for healing and enhancing scholar wins this with the same amount of enhancing magic as a rdm after books and the ability to rapture half of a divine seal every minute lol. The most effective HNM setup now for the tank pt really is 2 pld, sch, rdm, brd, cor. Rdm is just there for refresh and cure bombing while the sch is spamming stoneskin, aquaveil, and phalanx.. ( and whatever else is needed in AoE form).

And if we are talking about spike nuking you cannot leave out lolpup. The job gets so much ***but in the right player i've seen it spike well over the amount a blm can and can be completely hate-less nukes at the same time. 2873 Blizzard IV from the lolpup believe it i've seen it done AND ON HNM! my puppet myself can crap out 1200+ aero IV consistantly on kirin and 1800+ blizzard IV on JoL.

Don't forget....

The best equiped BLM and SCH are still stuck with the following:

Resist rate 5%.

That means no matter what, 5% of your spells are going to be resisted (down to 1/2 99.5% of the time, I have never gotten a 1/4 resist on puddings, but other BLMs get it all the time).

You can't go past it, anyone who says they can beat it is lying. Its the natural trait that every job has (when in doubt, you will fail 5% of the time)

I vote update for BLM >.> A hybrid job shouldn't be so close to matching BLM in terms of endgame effectiveness, SO not fair, haha.

This is the only thing anyone hears when you talk.

Seconded.

Hard to get resisted when you're doing it right => nuke on MB => +25 MaCC / +15% potency... If you have decent equip, you won't get resisted.

SCH still beat BLM overtime for sure, especially if no MB.