Paladin FAQ, Info, And Trade Studies.

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Paladin FAQ, Info, and Trade Studies.
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 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2014-02-01 23:09:53
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Edit: Errors were later found in my data processing for this test. Corrections and new Beatific values here.

I'll just leave this here.

Martel said:
Beatific shield tests.
Effing finally.

First, massive thanks to Keitaro, for writing me a log parser capable of pulling a list of blocked/non block hits and their dmg out of my log files. Manually searching and collecting the data from logs was freaking painful. And took so long I gave up on using the log data I'd already gathered twice. <,< But now tests for size 1 and 2 shields are relatively simple and painless. Thanks Kei!

So, data.

Mob:Serac Rabbit
Lvl: 111
Shield Skill: 504

Total Hits 2073
Block% 56.92
DMG%- -50.1
Total PDT -28.5

The sample here is a bit small, but I'll probably be doing more tests later now that it doesn't suck horribly.

I was surprised at the dmg- value. It was quite a bit higher than I'd expected. And I honestly wondered if my test wasn't bad. But after breaking it down it made more sense.

45 def shield. 22.5 dmg- from def. That leaves 27.5. 6% of that should be from shield def bonus. So 21.5% left. This seems like a fairly Reasonable base dmg- for a size1 shield. It is a somewhat odd number, but the sample is small, so the actual value could easily be 20%.

The block rate is high. But... not as high as I thought it'd be. On the same mobs, Killedar had a 47.64% block rate. 9.28% less than Beatific. Considering size 1 shields should have higher base block rate than size 3, and Beatific's unique "Increases chance of successful block" Stat, I'd expected a larger gap. Although, killedar does have a 28 skill advantage. Perhaps I need to look into and quantify the base block rate differences between the shield sizes...

So, where does this put Beatific in comparison to other shields(for physical dmg reduction)?

Using 111 mobs...
Code
Shield	Block%	DMG-	TPDT
Ochain	90.98%	-66%	-60.0%
Killedar47.64%	-86%	-40.9%
Beatific56.92%	-50%	-28.5%
Aegis	34.54%	-81%	-27.9%

Beatific is actually slightly better than Aegis for physical dmg reduction. But then, Aegis hasn't been impressive in that particular field since Ochain was added. Beatific is still miles behind Killedar, and even further from Ochain.

I have to admit, it's not as bad a shield as I thought it would be. It's not impressive, and there are far better, easily acquired options. But it's not totally worthless defensively.

Although, this doesn't really change my original conclusions about what this shield is good for.

Shield mastery TP gain(although, Ochain's better. Even if Beatific has +2 shield mastery, +10 TP on every hit is better than +12 on 57% of incoming hits.)

Skillup. Again, Ochain's better, but it's a fairly unusual case to have Ochain before you cap shield. <,<

And blocking WS add effects(or ironclad-esque melee add effects) in the absence of Ochain. In this case, the dmg reduction takes the back seat to just blocking as much as possibly to prevent nasty status.

I still need to quantify the "Increases chance of successful block" Trait on Beatific. But I'll need other size 1 data to figure that out. And I'll want more Beatific data to make sure my values are accurate.
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 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2014-02-01 23:48:26
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One could make a decent case that most death situations inside a group involve entirely unblocked hits, resulting in beatific being more likely to prevent death than killedar.

Disappointing though, was thinking it'd be notably higher.
 Valefor.Prothescar
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2014-02-01 23:55:30
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They said they're adding an iLvl 119 shield, yes? Might be pretty robust considering how strong Killedar is compared to Ochain. (Sure, Ochain still beats the ***out of it, but for a shield that takes only seconds to obtain it isn't bad at all).
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2014-02-02 00:05:08
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Did they? I must have missed it.

But yeah, It should be pretty strong. Assuming they make it a size 3. And don't skimp on the def.

Let's see... Killedar is Ilvl 117 iirc. has +100 skill. I can't recall the ilvl of the lower shields. And wiki doesn't show ilvl. Making it kinda hard to predict how much more skill+ a 119 would have...
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By Siren.Kyte 2014-02-02 01:07:53
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Beatific Shield- 113, +72

Steadfast Shield- 113, +85

Camaraderie Shield- 109, +50

Sors Shield- 109, +48

Kaidate- 109, +48

Huactzin Shield- 106, +34
 Phoenix.Demonjustin
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By Phoenix.Demonjustin 2014-02-02 01:43:12
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Wouldn't Beatific Shield +1(assuming Feb update has a 119 version) be a great alternative to Ochain, better than Killedar at least since it has that enhanced block rate as well? I would assume its DEF would go up to at very least 50 if not around 60 like Killedar has.
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2014-02-02 09:31:09
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Phoenix.Demonjustin said: »
Wouldn't Beatific Shield +1(assuming Feb update has a 119 version) be a great alternative to Ochain, better than Killedar at least since it has that enhanced block rate as well? I would assume its DEF would go up to at very least 50 if not around 60 like Killedar has.
Looking at just block rate first...

Beatific+1 would need 85% blockrate(+28% over current rate on 111 mobs) to match Killedar in overall dmg reduction. Which would take and additional +140 shield skill to reach(this is assuming the 5skill=1%block rate model, which I suspect to be the case at greater than 500 skill. 4skill=1% would need 112 additional skill.)

So that means to reach this point Beatific +1 would need +212(or +184) total skill+. Comparing that value to the highest ilvl shield atm. Killedar is ilvl 117, and has 100 skill. I can't really see 2 ilvls getting beatific+1 112(or 84) skill.

Now, looking at this again after adding def to Beatific.. current def, 45. if we go up to 50. DMG- on block would now be -52.6.

You would now need 81% total block rate to match killedar. 25% over current rate. so, need 125 more skill, putting it at 197 skill total on Beatific +1.

I dunno about you, But I just can't see a 119 ilvl shield getting that much skill+. They'd have to give a massive boost to the block+ trait or something.

So, Beatific +1 would be better than NQ, but it'd still be in the same place. Not as good as Ochain or killedar. But possibly useful for situations where more block rate is valued over greater total dmg reduction.
Siren.Kyte said: »
Beatific Shield- 113, +72

Steadfast Shield- 113, +85

Camaraderie Shield- 109, +50

Sors Shield- 109, +48

Kaidate- 109, +48

Huactzin Shield- 106, +34
Code
Shield		ilvl	skill+	skill per ilvl
Huactzin	106		34		5.6
Kaidate		109		48		5.3
Sors		109		48		5.3
Camadiere	109		50		5.5
Steadfast	113		85		6.5
beatific	113		72		5.5
Killedar	117		100		5.8
Eminent		117		100		5.8

So, going by this. a 119 shield would only have 10~13 more skill than a 117.

So a beatific +1 would likely have +103 skill. This being based on the NQ's 5.5 per ilvl rating. A 119 killedar would be around +111 skill.

Of course, this is just a projection based on how they've done things so far. SE could decide that 119 gets a abnormally large boost to skill+
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By Phoenix.Demonjustin 2014-02-04 12:21:45
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To be honest I was more or less curious just for using it on RDM rather than PLD and was just wondering how it stacks up against the current top shields, but in the end it still seems fairly good especially depending on how the upgraded version will be. ^_^;
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2014-02-04 13:51:25
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Well, when you mention Ochain and Killedar(neither of which RDM can wear) in the same sentence, in a PLD thread... One would tend to think the current topic was PLD.

Changing gears to RDM for a moment...

I'm not terribly well informed on what shields RDM can wear. But beatific should certainly get the highest block rate. Making it potentially the best RDM shield. This is, however, before considering any PDT gains from alternative shields. Again, I'm not certain where RDM stands with PDT either. If PDT is easily capped, then the following becomes mostly irrelevant.

But keep in mind, the block rate is going to be Substantially lower than on PLD. There's a big difference in shield skill here. 159 skill difference actually.

Some potentially inaccurate speculation. 159 skill / 4 = 39.75 block rate lost.

Was at 56.92% on 111 mobs. Subtract the 39.75% and we have 17.17% block rate remaining. This pushes the total dmg reduction down to -8.6%(from 28.5% on PLD) At this point, Beatific's dmg reduction could be beaten by Genbu shield's PDT, before even accounting for it's block related dmg reduction. EDIT:I forgot that Beatific could get -4% PDT. This being the case, it should win whether you cap PDT or not. Now, move to mobs of a high enough lvl, and you eventually go back to the previous situation. /EDIT

Now, if you cap PDT on RDM, without the shield slot, then this becomes irrelevant, and Beatific would be the best dmg- option.

Alternatively, shield mastery TP gain, or the MDT could be good reasons to use beatific on RDM.

Also, 111 is pretty damn high level right now. If you were doing something old like say, salvage II, you could expect a notably higher block rate. I couldn't really guess How much higher. No idea what level those mobs are.
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 Phoenix.Demonjustin
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By Phoenix.Demonjustin 2014-02-04 15:08:33
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Right I was meaning how Beat would stack up against other Shields for PLD, but I would be using it on RDM. Basically, I know people have PLDs tank WKs, and since at this point I almost exclusively play RDM I have been interested in making a tank set in order to see if I could do the same with my RDM.

Since RDM got Beatific Shield, I assumed figuring out how good it is in a comparison for PLD shields would also show about how well it should do for RDM, basically, I know its the best for RDM, but if Beatific is one of the best PLD shields, by default its a great option overall when it comes to shields and RDM should be capable of putting it to use against something like WKs.

So with that in mind, even in the best of cases it will not match or beat Killedar or Ochain, but it is still a powerful shield and one of PLD's best options it sounds like, so it should provide well enough for RDM to have somewhat similar results if done properly. I won't tank better than a PLD, and I will never tank something like Ark Angels, but with how good the shield is I should be able to pull off weaker fights like WKs and possibly even tank something like the low-man Delve coming out next update.

Sorry to confuse you with what I was asking. :x
 Phoenix.Neosutrax
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By Phoenix.Neosutrax 2014-02-05 14:43:01
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Do you have some links to your Beatific shield block rate testing Martel? I was expecting much higher block rates on 111 mobs given the shield size, skill, and increased block rate trait.
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2014-02-05 14:47:17
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I reposted the test from BG at the top of this page.

The sample size on this one was small, but I was trying for accurate block dmg reduction, so the mobs were hitting freaking hard(had like, 5% PDT.) <,<;;

It's def not absolute, But I think it's a good first look at decent size 1 testing. Need to get off my *** at some point and test it on different mob levels and shield skill values.
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By Phoenix.Neosutrax 2014-02-05 15:00:14
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I'm suspect to those results. Are we certain the parser your friend wrote is that accurate?

Ochain should be capped on lvl 111 mobs (and people are claiming capped/near capped block rates in the higher level AA fights).

That's also lower than we'd both expect for a size 1 block rate, and for Aegis/Kiljeader.

Using our formula:

Shield Block Rate = Base_Block_Rate + [((Shield Skill – Base_Skill)/SkillDivider) – LevelCorrectionFactor]

Kiljeader:
Tested: 47.64%
Expected:
50% base + [((8(merits) + 100(kiljeader bonus))/5) - (111-99/2)]
= 65.6% block rate.

Aegis, following the same formula, should yield a block rate of about
46%..

And I've observed MUCH higher block rate on other mobs with Beatific..

I think something's wrong here with these numbers.
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2014-02-05 15:58:01
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Based on all my old Ochain tests, Ochain is uncapped on lvl 105 mobs. If by a amazingly tiny amount. 99.92% block rate(2703 hits.) And capped on 105 mobs with 433 skill(4325 hits.)

But in real fights, ppl use reprisal, and get cure skin spammed. With a decent to high block rate, it's very easy to not see a non block over the course of a ~30 min fight.

Also, my Aegis and Killedar tests were done with my standard methods, using kparser. So I don't think there's any question that the level 111 tests were accurate. Well, unless you wanna start doubting kparser. Then we can throw every shield test I've ever done out the window, and start all over.

Regarding the beatific data. I only really needed the log parser to gather the per hit data for block/nonblocked, so I could get the block dmg- value. If it's just block rate, I can manually verify that with a couple of searches in notepadd++. I also parsed the test on my mule, so I'll have that data to check against.

I'll post again when I've finished going through things.
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2014-02-05 16:45:57
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So, I did find some discrepancies. One that I understand can account for, and one that I have no idea about.

So, data.
Code
Manually searched from logs
Blocks 1180
non blocks 887
crits 41

Log parser
blocks 1180
non block 893
After looking at this for a bit, I figured out what the deal was. When requesting the log parser, I didn't say anything about how to handle crits. Atm, battle mod does not show a block msg on crits. So the log parser is bundling all crits with the non blocked hits. There were also 6 hits for 0 that I have no idea where they came from.

887-41=846
893-41-6=846

After doing a find replace with crits in the log(removing the word hit from each crit, I compared manual searches and log parser data and got matching results.

So, some minor issues to be looked at, but the log parser does appear to be useable.
Code
Total Hits	2026
Block%	58.24
DMG%-	-48.2
Total PDT	-28
Gained 1.62% block rate, lost 1.9% block dmg-. Overall this is a loss for beatific, putting it 0.5% behind its total dmg reduction from the original test.

So, now the other issue. I compared my logs to the parse I had... and I just dunno.
Code
Kparser data
Melee Damage Taken
Player             Melee Dmg   Melee %   Hit/Miss   M.Low/Hi    M.Avg  #Crit  C.Low/Hi   C.Avg     Crit%
Martel                197950   94.93 %   2087/103     41/193    90.52     99    95/311  181.72    4.74 %

According to my logs, I only had 41 crits. Yet the parse has 99. My logs total hits is 2067 while parse has 20 more at 2087. This difference could be explained by the time gap between me marking the end of the test with an echo, and actually stopping the parse. But that still doesn't explain where my other 50 odd crits went. And I'm only 2 behind in total not 50+.

While this is troublesome, I don't think the size of the discrepancy is large enough to ruin the test. But I do think more testing, and examining of testing methods is needed.
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By Phoenix.Neosutrax 2014-02-06 10:48:41
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Thanx man. I'll take a look at all the data and try and reconcile it with the shield formula we used for the old tests.

A few guesses however is that size 1's actually have the same base block rate as size 3s, which I guess wouldn't be totally surprising. Lower size shields could also get more benefit from shield skill (though we can't really verify that since we don't know Beatific shield's bonus value).

We also still need to nail down the exact bonus values of Reprisal and Palisade.
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By Phoenix.Neosutrax 2014-02-06 12:33:46
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Nevermind, I shouldn't try and post when I'm sleepy.

The level correction function is (MobLevel - Playerlevl)*2, not divided by 2.

Using that, we get numbers similar to what you saw:



Few things:

1. I don't think Ochain is just a "+300 skill," but rather a +% block rate, which I haven't nailed down. Though I can't be sure since we haven't nailed down the exact skill divider by level.

2. We need to do some testing on some size 1 shields that don't have a block rate bonus, to determine whether they have a higher block rate than size 3 shields, or whether the ~15% higher block rate on Beatific is from the bonus.

3. Note that Aegis should actually have a much lower shield block rate than we observed, which means we may have a shield block minimum (35%?) for size 3 or 5 shields. We should test other size 3s on higher ilvl mobs without the +100 skill, to see if we see the same block rate minimum.
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2014-02-06 13:06:11
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2 is in my future plans. Just hadn't got to it yet.

3 I can address right now.
Code
Block rates by lvl. Size 3 shields
shield			106		107		108		109		110		111	
killedar(old*)	35.18	34.58	33.19	28.73	
Weathering										28.00	27.45		
*at the time of testing, this shield had no skill+

Sample size by level
106 4548
107 4054
108 3094
109 3692
110 3239
111 5938

I've posted the killedar(old) 106~109 tests before though. I don't think I've posted the weathering 110~111 tests before though. Was planning on getting 111~113 then posting all at once.
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By Phoenix.Neosutrax 2014-02-06 14:26:25
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Damnit, why are we seeing higher block rates on Aegis than size 3 shields on lvl 111 mobs.

This ***is so frustrating.

It's also interesting that we're seeing a 1% drop in block rate as the mob level increases (instead of the expected 2%), at least until you get 10 levels over, and then we se a sudden 4% drop in block rate..
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2014-02-06 15:36:42
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Phoenix.Neosutrax said: »
Damnit, why are we seeing higher block rates on Aegis than size 3 shields on lvl 111 mobs.

This ***is so frustrating.

It's also interesting that we're seeing a 1% drop in block rate as the mob level increases (instead of the expected 2%), at least until you get 10 levels over, and then we se a sudden 4% drop in block rate..
Well, I'd thought for a long time that Aegis' size 5 had a higher base block rate than size 3. At least that's how I explained the block difference to myself.

Some kind of level correction tier at 10 lvls over? Could probably use another series of tests. But doing a 6 level spread takes a loooong time.
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By Phoenix.Neosutrax 2014-02-06 15:50:31
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Well it could be a number of things. I don't think we'd see a tier system on the level correction, because I can't rationalize why SE would do that (unless they like to separate/group difficulty of mobs by lvl, instead of a linear progression).

It could be that the mobs broke a d-dex tier or something and starting crit hitting more (screwing up your parse), or some other parsing error.

It doesn't look like it's a statistical anomaly since you had a large sample size.

Do you have any Aegis test on other level mobs? I'd buy that it has a higher block rate than size 3, from personal experience.
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2014-02-06 16:57:54
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Crits should have 0 impact on any block rate in any of those tests. they were all standard parses, with a visible gap between block and non block. Crits only messed with the beatific test cause I had to use battle mod to identify blcoks, since the dmg- on blocks was so small that block and non block dmg had significant overlap. And battlemod doesn't display block msgs on crits, all crits were counted as non blocks.

Aegis data for 106~111
Code
Shield	106		107		108		109		110		111
Aegis	40.87	40.38	38.62	39.08	34.65	34.54

Sample size by level
106 3070
107 3459
108 3407
109 3165
110 4764
111 6171

I do have some older lvl 105 aegis tests, but I'd rather use newer, post battlemod tests. As the mob level is absolute.
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By Phoenix.Neosutrax 2014-02-06 17:48:19
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Something wonky about those numbers. With that sample size we should have a pretty accurate block rate by level, yet we're seeing a 1% increase at 109, then 4.5% drop at 110.

Either way, using those numbers, and still guestimating at the skill-divider, it looks like Aegis has ~5% higher base block rate than size 3 shields.
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By Carbuncle.Snoochybooch 2014-02-08 04:26:24
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I'm curious as to how people deal with VD MR, do you do aegis with full PDT, or try to switch back and forth between PDT/MDT for cloud splitter and rampage?
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By Carbuncle.Akivatoo 2014-02-08 05:57:56
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Ochain+PDT till 50%
then untill Charm: full resist charm set + fealty
when charm avoid (or not ^^;) PDT + ochain
@25% switch for Aegis and capped MDT+MDB set until she die (Cloud do less than 300DMG)
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By Phoenix.Neosutrax 2014-02-08 09:45:17
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To be fair, MDB is largely superfluous with Aegis, at least in the slots available. So just stick with max -DT/PDT set with Aegis, since you're auto-capping MDT.
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By itchi508 2014-02-12 12:22:29
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Question to anyone able to verify. Does upgrading Aegis 95>99 increase shield size/block rate? I have heard it does, i looked briefly myself but couldn't find any answers. I have been debating upgrading it but if its just for a show peace maybe il bail out since the only thing will be a larger shield bash as the extra 5% MDT isn't going to change anything.

Thanks in advance!
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By Carbuncle.Sambb 2014-02-12 15:23:53
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Carbuncle.Snoochybooch said: »
I'm curious as to how people deal with VD MR, do you do aegis with full PDT, or try to switch back and forth between PDT/MDT for cloud splitter and rampage?

Carbuncle.Akivatoo said: »
Ochain+PDT till 50%
then untill Charm: full resist charm set + fealty
when charm avoid (or not ^^;) PDT + ochain
@25% switch for Aegis and capped MDT+MDB set until she die (Cloud do less than 300DMG)
^^^^^
This I have done it numerous times as quoted above by akiv.

pld rng rng smn whm brd fealty 50% then when about to wear if charm hasn't happened smn perfect defences.

I have had only one instance ever where charm came late and the mob was at like 26% before it finally charmed me. Think I was in a party with Legato when that happened.

Could use a cor for 1hr reset instead of the smn but the smn I go with is exceptionally geared so not your normal run of the mill one.

I agree with neo tho on the last bit,
25% put on Aegis and sit in pdt/dmg taken gear and that's pretty much it. Don't try swapping from one to the other.
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2014-02-12 18:08:28
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itchi508 said: »
Question to anyone able to verify. Does upgrading Aegis 95>99 increase shield size/block rate? I have heard it does, i looked briefly myself but couldn't find any answers. I have been debating upgrading it but if its just for a show peace maybe il bail out since the only thing will be a larger shield bash as the extra 5% MDT isn't going to change anything.

Thanks in advance!
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/108199-Random-Facts-Thread-Other?p=5356414&viewfull=1#post5356414
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