Twasher + Offhand Dagger Options

Obviously this is something I cannot test just yet so I am posting to see if anyone else has found some information on it.

-My main question/theory is would the TP bonus +100 be a good dagger for offhand with twasher? The TP modifiers look pretty nice on Rudra's Storm so would this be something worth trying?

-Triplus dagger seems an obvious choice but I have not been able to find testing with Twasher. Is the triple attack from Rudra's Storm enhanced by triplus' dmg bonus as well as the +2 AF set?

What other offhand daggers with Twasher have been used, tested or thought of?

TP bonus does not work offhand.
Triplus is probably your best bet

Shoot forgot to post that question, but ty for answering that, lol.

Triplus is the best offhand DPS dagger.
Rudra's storm has no "Triple attack", not sure what you mean by that. It's a single hit with a 3.0 fTP (at 100%).
AF3+2 set bonuses cannot proc on WS.

edit: you can proc triple attacks on any WS of course, in which case the triplus bonus should apply.

Dagger Weapon Skill

* Skill Level: N/A
* Description: Deals triple damage and weighs target down. Damage varies with TP. Twashtar: Aftermath.
* Available only when equipped with Twashtar (85) or Daka +1.

Is prob what he means.

Indeed. In which case I would say, this is not a Triple Attack, it is merely a description of the fTP of the WS.

Im not agreeing with him, just saying what hes getting the idea from :P

There has been a discussion on alla some time ago that could fit here. It was an argument favoring low delay weapons (rapidus), i'm a bit too busy (well maybe too lazy) to find the threads there.

The main idea was that with a low delay offhand a higher percentage of our dps will come from our slower weapon (in this case, Twash), and since Twash has super high dps, we should really want this. In the end Twash/Rapidus dps comes up being higher than Twash/Triplus (80 damage with 326 delay > 86 with 352).

With Twash, specially when spamming Rudras (call it aftermath up full time), a rapidus is probably the winner, due the increased oddd frequency. Since rapidus combo is like 7% faster than triplus one, that's 7% more oportunities to proc oddd.

Of course a situation where a thf is going to spam Rudras is rare itself, because this means soloing the ws. That can only really work well with high pdif and the help of super triple rates (Apoc+ AO atma combo).

But then again, triplus vs rapidus comes out to 3% extra triple vs 1% haste - which we can make use if we are 5/5 af - and acc. If we do not have capped acc (any/most high tier heroes nm), rapidus will automatically beat the crap out of triplus. If i remember correctly, 3% triple is 3% increase in damage with 44% triple rate. 1% haste can't beat that easily. Soloing is a situation where i can spam Rudras, and there is no super haste there. So the increase in oddd frequency has to make up for that difference. I think it might do it, but never calculated, and don't have time right now. So i'm leaving these arguments for a possible debate then.

>Twasher

THF knife

Yea, I read that as an automatic triple attack proc for some reason. Thank you everyone for your input, I will definitely be doing more research as I take the long road to my cake cutter.

Is this basically the same argument made for low delay weapons with Mandau -- you want to gear for a lower total delay so there are more total chances for Twashtar to swing, which means more total chances for the double damage proc, which effectually compensates for the shitty swings of Rapidus compared to Triplus?

This idea of altering the % of your DPS coming from Twashtar doesn't make sense to me unless you are factoring in the proc chances as an advantage for lower total delay.

I like your idea.I would have personally just go with twastar + triplus, but you make me see it another way.Always saw rapidus as a (lol) dagger 1% haste and acc that in the end we dont really need.But on the delay side like you explain it, is very interesting.Gonna reconsider.

You'd have to rely very heavily on ODD procs for rapidus to beat triplus, so much that it's not feasible imo.

The acc+ is a moot point, as any thf should have well over capped acc (yes, even on high tier NMs) from gear alone.


Not sure why you would use rudra's while soloing. Evis will easily outdo the WS and additional ODD damage, because you cannot stack SA/TA.

Nice to see this thread didn't die.

Yeah, that's the only issue, cause we are pretty much working with trade offs. We decrease our average ws damage but we increase our dot phase. But wait! Our dot split is higher anyway, maybe it's not so bad? Min maxing is all this game is about.

I don't really agree with this. I think i carry around 85% acc (can't check my parses now) against Orthrus going full af. And really, Orthrus is among the easy ones.


That's exactly it.

Exaplaining things a bit: The reason why Twash/Rapidus has better dps than Twash/Triplus is inherent to this concept. Rapidus has lower dps than Triplus, but when it's comboed with Twash it beats the Triplus combo. Yes, that is because Twash has more oportunities to swing. Our DW dps is a basically a weighted average on both weapons delay.

Twash/Rapidus = 176 + 150
Twash/Triplus = 176 + 176

With Triplus, Twash will contribute with 176/352 (50%) of its dps to our final dps. Triplus will also contribute with 50%. Now when paired with Rapidus, Twash will contribute with 176/326 (~54%) and Rapidus ~46%.

This is the only reason why Twash/Rapidus has better raw dps. Raw, because Triplus still has 3% triple attack rate and that extra triple damage. Just like Rapidus has haste and acc.

The point is that we could use these numbers to check the benefit of using a lower delay combo.

I'll be back on this later, my break is over.

edit: ok, back to this~
edit2: ninja edit to fix this~

Tier aftermath is 30% proc, right? 30% increase in damage to Twash's swings only.
Twash(90) dps: 16.36
Twash w/ Aftermath dps: 21.27
Rapidus dps: 12.8
Triplus dps: 12.95

Twash + rapidus
DW dps: 16.36*0.54 + 12.8*0.46 = 14.72
Aftermath: 21.27*0.54* + 12.8*0.46 = 17.37 (increase of 18%)

Twash + triplus
DW dps: 16.36*0.5 + 12.95*0.5 = 14.65
DW dps: 21.27*0.5 + 12.95*0.5 = 17.1 (increase of 16.7%)

So rapidus does make better use of the aftermath.

We could compare this to the loss of not using evis. Here is an example i use a lot; i really like these numbers lol. Evis doing 3.5k average vs Rudras doing 2.5k (parsed on fear deags).

3.5/2.5 is a 40% boost to ws damage favoring evis. WS damage is 40% of our damage, 40% on 40% is 16% final increase. By that, using 60% to tp phase, 18% increase from aftermath damage is 10.8% increase in our final damage.

Sad to accept it but, at least inside abyssea, evis is still better. The increase in dps by using Rudras is still great and it might be pretty worthwhile to solo it outside.

Two of these worked very nice for me before getting *** Masher.
Now I offhand one of them, until I get a Mandau. <,<
I think the Str and Att are especially good for Mithra.

Oh yeah Apop, Kila is a serious contender, specially against (hard) nms. On said nms undoubtedly our fstr will be uncapped. Kila combo will beat any other combo dot with that alone, and it still has a huge attack boost to boot.

On normal mobs kila might or not be better. Working with trade offs again. We hit harder and ws harder, but we ws less frequently. With triplus we get: we hit more and ws "harder" and also ws more frequently as well. Question is if kila's dot is hard enough beat triplus overall boost.

Well, i remembered about Kinematics' dnc spreadsheet (wish we had a thf one;;) and it came out like this with Twash mainhand using RR/AO/Apoc atmas and against a lv97 mob:
Triplus (304 damage) > Kila +2 (303 damage)> Rapidus(299 damage)
Everything is really close. That was with capped acc though and if something as small as 3 acc is necessary, rapidus ties with them. Anything more than that and rapidus beats everything.

I've stated before that I'm no math geek, and now that I'm closing in on the "functional" Twashtar, is offhanding my Mandau while in Abyssea mathematically worth it? Biggest thing being the low delay + dmg combo being great despite the attack boost dropping off.

so rudra's is that much better than mercy?

Two parts to this answer:

1) In abyssea, the range of 4k is the highest I've really seen out of stacked Mercy. My understanding is that Rudra's outshines that high by a fair amount, not to mention the ODD which is what is really killing my Mandau's value. An aftermath of increased crit doesn't really mean a damn thing at this point...

2) There's not much left in the game for me to do, so this is a new goal to complete.

man u guys rock with these debates and explaining ***WOW is all i can say my luck is i have both triplus and sax so once i finally complete my *** masher i can key in some testing :)

u guys rock all i can say lol

Rudra's is actually complete and utter garbage, the only thing its good for is the ODD.

Not at 100%.

Rudra's storm: 60% DEX ftp 3.25

Mercy: STR:60% ftp 3.00

Slighlty lower ftp. A stat mod that doesn't benefit from RR... but lvl 90 version gets +25% dmg. Making the ws itself pretty close in dmg. Though Mandaus attack should push mercy up there and factor in offhand hit and DA/TA pretty sure mercy stroke would do more.

But then twashers ODD kinda destroys Mandaus. Assuming you are using either since unstacked evis is generally a bit better

Well, against most melees overall, I'm able to get a single SA+WS off before gaining a fair amount of hate, enough to keep it on me full time, then it's a matter of whether I'm going to be be full time tanking the mob in which case I begin the Evisceration spam, or TA+WS to plant hate on someone else.

I'm pretty sure I've seen a good few screenshots of Rudra's doing 6k+ but I can't say that I was paying attention to what was being fought, which may explain a skewed number. Sadly, if 4k~ish range is what I have to look foward to on Rudra's, I'll be kinda sad =( My Mandau will be happy tho, and I'll have a low delay offhand with +15 DEX... >.> lol

What the hell are you doing to make unstacked rudras do 2.5k average? I'm lucky to get 1-1.5k average on unstacked rudras, while my evis easily averages 2.5-3.5k

The key to mandau is getting it to the 90 version and getting that +25% dmg boost.

Anyways in most pts I find trying to TA often loweres my dps as for some reason every since we stopped setting up SATA skillchains in xp pts melees decided that running in circles around mobs somehow helps their dps... so usually I have to chase melees down just to have them move right before I ws... *** annoying as hell.

Against nms if I'm on thf I am tanking... and peoples are too afraid to get in there. For awhile I had my alt stand in front of me full and so I could TA... but yeah someone decided to take that back.

As far as 6k... even with SATA 250 dex 200 agi (after bonuses) capped pdif you'd pretty much need either 1+ triple attack or 2 double attack procs... and of course no misses. Unless you fought something that took extra dmg

Doing the math even capping attack and 25% triple attack rate to average that you'd pretty much need 350 dex...

Mad skills allways wins over maths dude!

I'm usually in a BLU & THF setup with a friend of mine w/ his Almace so we try to maximize his self SC abilities with my 2x Darkness off of Mercy. I agree with the avoidance of TA in most cases - I do better just spamming off Eviscerations as soon as I can unless my partner is only short a single swing to darkness off of his Chant.

For the record, I do already have the level 90 Mandau, I've just understood from my LITTLE bit of reading that it was still being out parsed by Twashtar users, and I like being a THF that defies the "not a DD" stigma... I may have made a bad decision to upgrade the damn thing if what is being said is true... Oh well, I'll have a nice offhand at the least X.X