Thief Merits

Of course it can, I just said for me, that's its application.

Just thought I would bring this back from the dead to discuss what Thiefs do nowadays with their merits. I guess my main question here is, do you use Ambush? And if you do, what do you sacrifice to use Ambush? Thanks.

Don't think any THF uses ambush any more.

Using more than 1 merit for aura steal (extra merit is chance to absorb) and feint (extra merit is increase of 25% chance to proc th) wont bring more advantage than ambush imo.

Probably not, but 15 accuracy from behind a target is borderline at best. If you're doing it right, you should be dancing all over the place, and SA can't miss from behind anyway. It just depends on what you use THF for, but 15 accuracy isn't game-breaking at this point by any means.

Gotta say I love aura steal 5/5 with reforged head. Garranteed 2xbuffs on every use.
Offers so much utility between soloing(protect/shell/ice spikes/defence or attack boosts/etc) or for party play(attack boosts for yourself or def/magic def boosts/evasion boosts/etc)
Sure it can be done without but with the recast being so low, personally I love it.

Its not a point of game breaking. Its a matter of choosing between:

- 9 acc when behind;
- +75% of th proc over base th proc rate;
- +60% chance to absorb a random buff from mob.
(Because i consider at least 1 merit in aura steal and feint are a good idea, as well 5/5 in assassins charge).

I wont even argue whats best, its totally up to personal preferences (some people will prefer higher chance for th, etc).

About the 9 acc not being game breaking, i understand you cant or you shouldnt consider such situational bonus (ambush) in your gear/buffs. But 9 acc is almost 3% hit rate. Acc is diferent of att: while att contribute to pdif in a ratio, so low numbers against high defense means very little %, acc contribute to hit rate by adding/substracting to mob evasion, so +1 acc has the same contribuition be it lv1 or lv120 (level correction aside).

And i would avoid saying "if youre doing right". Any biased opinion can be considered "right" to the one saying. For example, Hittler considered "right" to kill jews.

Godwin in a thf merit thread, I have now seen everything...

Got to weigh up the damage increase in merits in AC though.
At 5/5 it will give you 1ftp extra on a rudras going from 22.5 to 23.5 on 1/5 of your ACWS.
But
Your losing the benefits of chiner's belt and reforged feet on AC doing that when it quads. So 12% damage across the 3hits or 1ftp on a already inflated ftp WS.
So it prob not even worth the extra 4 merits.

5/5 Aura steal is a god send for soloing. (which is rare these days /***). It's a god send for slow bards and ice spikes. It's amazing for ganking zerk/boost/phalanx. Even at 4/5 steal.... I NEVER stole the buffs... only dispelled it. Granted that stealing the buff most of the time gets you the worst possible one... hello enaero for the 90th time...

But Ambush serves absolutely zero purpose. The only time you CAN use it is if you REFUSE to SA, and therefor fail at life. If you SA at all, you're tanking, period.

You also have to use relic body to tp in, with no acc, kinda hurts...

Feint 5/5 is about evasion minus, NOT about treasure hunter procing. Thats a rook mistake. Anyone who thinks you get 5/5 Feint for TH proc rate is a bad thf.

Assassin's charge is just plain bad. 5 Minute timer garbage for 1 ws, and Rudras benefits almost negligably from forcing a TA.

I didnt see the legs enhancement. I can see the feint 5/5 being a better option now.

Valli is right about the boost per merit on feint being substantial (10 per merit)but, feint already gives -50% evasion. God knows what you would be fighting to not cap hitrate with that.

The more the merrier.

You do pug... you can't possibly tell me the trash you get lumped in with caps hit rate. That's not possible. but you probably don't parse. Right.

/smh.

The evasion lets you stay in a true tp set, instead of having to change to your high acc set, for the duration. That means more dps for everyone.

Wow if there a mob your fighting that lets you change gear better than me after a drop of what 550 evasion with pants and merits, instead of my 500, what was your hitrate pre feint?
Way under Floored at 20%. You must cycle feint with a party of thfs to kill stuff.
You do realise that 158 acc will take you from 20 to 99% right?
Take that away from the 500 leaves 342 acc under 20% hit rate. You need to be under that for the pants and merits to make a difference.
And that's with just a 1000 evasion mob.

And the higher level you go the more evasion feint is going to take since its a % debuff. I can't see a situation where -50 extra is ever viable.

Signs of a bad thf.

Don't want to join the argument concerning the merits, but just curious about Assassin's Charge. I know for War Warrior's Charge was deemed a DPS loss to use, 1/5 or 5/5 regardless. Is the change from DA to TA (and I guess the accompanying +TA damage that Thf gets) enough to make it actually a DPS increase, regardless of how small it is on a 5 min timer?

I was only ever on thf 3-4 times @99 before and have only used aura steal once. Was in dynamis after some beastmen pld did invincible. It was a glorious day.

Any ja you use, costs you DPS. Look at boost, big increase to ws, big loss to white damage.

AC is basically THF's boost. It's an idiot magnet. The extra attacks (sometimes) since thf already has so much multi, and the chance of QA negating TA makes it bad.

An extra swing on Rudra equates to realistically zero gain. Now add in the time lost for using the JA... and... yeah.

Never partied with more than 1 thf and other DDs?
And if not then your saying that you use SA and get hate forcing you to tank and therefor can't get any benefits from ambush anymore. But if what your saying is true you can't SA again for the rest of the fight unless bully is up.
So by your own addmission are a bad thf. Which is it?

I gotta block this guy, first time ever doing it, but he says the dumbest ***, and I can't not be mean. It's too easy.

So just if you're curious, I can't see your posts anymore.

AC on evis, is pretty decent, it's a dps gain (ftp carries now) but its a DPS loss on rudra.

Still waiting to see you back this up with, you know, maths.
Again you prove you can use parses and spreadsheets but don't understand game mechanics. Well done.

Aura Steal 5/5 works great in Salvage and Dynamis, kinda nice when you can walk by a Lamia or a Yagudo, steal their fresh protect, hide, and move on.

Assassin's Charge never seemed worth it to me at any amount since I'd only use it for Evisceration. With Vajra, it's made even less practical for me.

Feint 5/5 is really just for TH. You've got bigger issues at hand if you need that extra -10 or 50 evasion over a 50% drop.

Ambush is hard to make full use of, but I melee in the relc 119 body full-time unless I'm having accuracy issues (and it's the last piece to be swapped out for more accuracy). Plenty of things I fight, often with just one other DD, while the hate is generally balanced, any "constant turning phase" only lasts for so long between the hate shedding from taking damage and hate gain from dealing out weaponskills.

Ok well I wanted to see whether Ambush would be of any use, and there appears to be quite the split. All I can do is give my own experiences on THF in the current game.

Feint - This is staying 5/5 for me, as I am used in Incursion for Treasure Hunter, and I am still after those Savory Shanks on Behemoths, so not having 5/5 Feint would be bad for me. Also the evasion down IS very useful, as you never know when you could fight evasive NM, such as Largantua (and not have a party full of BRDs, CORs and GEOs), and really need that evasion down.

You can never expect all the DD to have epic accuracy sets, and you should expect DD to use damage taken sets if they have hate, so that extra evasion down would help them. Once again, it is situational. Feint gets better the harder and more evasive the content is.

Aura Steal - When I solo, I am either a) with trusts, or b) in old content like Dynamis/Salvage. Although it would be super cool to absorb multiple buffs from an enemy, it really isn't needed. I can already get scrolls of instant protect and shell from peacekeepers coalition if I really need it, and if I want Haste, I have Oynos Knife. I can't think of any other buffs I would seriously want, so Aura Steal remains 1/5 for me. It is nice to dispel, but it's rare for me to think .. "I seriously need to dispel this buff". It's just something to try every now and then for the fun of it.

Here is where my head hurts, and it never used to be this way, Assassin's Charge was always something I relied upon.

Assassin's Charge - I have had it on 4/5 for years now. The main reason being was because it enhanced Evisceration something wicked. Pair that with Plun. Poulaines +1, and you see a pretty substantial boost. It's not like that anymore, and Rudra's Storm doesn't appear to be boosted as much by it. It's not just about Rudra's though.

In the current endgame, as a Rudra's Storm THF, you want to skillchain. The problem with that is that you need to be ready to skillchain, and unless you are some sort of time lord (oops, Who reference), who knows exactly when another DD is going to weaponskill, you tend to miss out on doing Assassin's Charge. In an environment like Incursion, where things are happening and text is flowing up the screen rather quickly, it's easy enough to miss someone weaponskilling, so you have to be much more aware nowadays of what others are doing (on THF I mean, I don't mean in general). Not only that, but Rudras is much better at 1750TP (with Moonshade), which lowers the chance of using Assassin's Charge even more.

I can say the one time I do really rely on it, is at the start of a popped NM fight. EG. You want to pop Largantua. Pop SATA + Feint + Assassins Charge > Pop the NM > Bully > Put in WS gear > Line up behind the other DD > Engage > Rudra's.

Now that works pretty well, and you can get a pretty hefty Rudras off right away, and give the other DD all the hate from the beginning, freeing you up to stand behind it and go nuts. Losing stages on AC will lower the damage, but how much damage would be lost putting AC on 1/5 compared to 4/5? I guess that's what I am thinking about. The main reason I am thinking about this is because of the possibility of Ambush.

Ambush - As my THF gets used quite regularly, and as I continue to do high tier Incursions, accuracy is beginning to become more important. I do have a high accuracy set, but it's missing a ton of double/triple attack, and although I can hit well with it, the TP gain isn't as much as it could be. I also noticed just how evasive Largantua is (and don't pretend we won't get other evasive mobs in the near future that requires 1000+ primary accuracy before buffs), and without food and the right buffs, any DD will miss a lot. I also don't get super buffs in Incursion, as I am there for Treasure Hunter mostly, but I do contribute damage.

I use five different TP sets for THF: Fodder (Thaumas), Trusts (Qaaxo), Dual Wield ilvl (Plunderer's), Super Buffs ilvl (Qaaxo), and Super Accuracy (Pillager's).

Now, when I do 127 Incursion, the accuracy set is too much, the buff set won't work, and the fodder set is too dangerous, so I use my Plunderer's Body. Now, if I was to make full use of that, I could have Ambush on 3/5 and give myself Triple Attack +3 and the accuracy is just a bonus. It would sit really well for that situation. I also tend to be behind the mobs a lot, as our Samurais have Mythics. Bare in mind, in Incursion I am lucky to get Haste, and it's rare I will ever get Marchs, so this TP set has to have dual wield and ilvl gear. I have to make do with the situation I find myself in, and in recent times I have found myself wanting Ambush, and rarely getting the chance to use Assassin's Charge properly.

Conclusion: So at the end of it all (sorry for the big long explanation), I am torn between WS damage, and a better TP build for my THF in the situations I find myself in. I know that Rudra's and AC don't work as well together as Evisceration would, but it's still an increase, and at the same time, I wonder whether I could be TPing better with Ambush so I could get more TP to do more Rudra's. It's *** for tat I know. It's situational, but I seem to find myself wanting Ambush more these days, but it appears others have completely different points of view.

PS: I didn't want this thread to turn into a heated argument, I was hoping for some debate. I am just looking for information and personal experiences of other THF, and I do not judge other THF for playing their job in a different way to myself.

Since Assassin's Charge really only helps Evisceration, you gotta take into account the fact that Evis is already 6 hits (5 main + 1 offhand). Since a triple attack proc puts you at the 8-hit cap, you really don't need to worry about the quadruple attack proc rate, making excess merits in AC worthless. You'd do just fine dropping AC down to 1/5 and putting 3/5 into Ambush.

In case you wondered, the damage that comes from extra hits in Rudra's is basically a little stronger than a regular swing. Ever miss the first hit of Rudra's and see it do incredibly sad amounts of damage? That's how much you're adding (per hit) when you use Assassin's Charge with Rudra's.

Here's one example: even with that massive eva-, a PLD using a typical tanking set likely won't cap acc on something rather evasive (even though your typical melee DD might). Your tank capping hit rate helps them generate as much enmity as possible through more WS, helping the whole group.

Even if that's a fairly limited use, I'd never ignore better TH proc chance. At least that's something valuable. AC and Ambush simply aren't useful to me.

Ok thanks man, this is pretty much what I was looking for when I revived this thread. I have done those pitiful Rudra's before.. and thought.. well how did that happen? They are very rare to see but they do happen. Going to drop AC down to 1/5 and put Ambush 3/5. :) Thanks for the info!

The list does go on and on, doesn't make them useful. What content are you doing where you steal warcry from a doll and aren't attacked cap on that content?

Aura Steal for the most part is a fun gimmick to steal buffs on content that is either irrelevant or the buff doesn't really matter. Matter of fact, the content that does matter where you could steal a buff is so irrelevant, that your party will most likely not even realize it's gone, nor care if it was or wasn't.

You can hit haste caps etc... without it in party player. You are usually /war giving things like warcry anyways. The list of how usefulness it really is goes on and on.

Considering the rudra changes. Ambush will probably be 100% useless. Because you will most likely end up tanking pretty fast, and even more so is not beneficial at all in solo play.

I already explained myself in the post above, and I already explained that I run with Mythic SAMs who are given all the buffs and I am in the other party with barely any buffs. Ambush isn't for Rudra's (directly), it is for the TP build in the situations I highlighted above, which would be more useful to me than 4/5 AC.