China 2nd Largest Economy

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China 2nd Largest Economy
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 Siren.Catabolic
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By Siren.Catabolic 2010-07-30 19:05:17
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The US does monitor the sales of certain materials very closely. They won't bother with small time stuff but if you're buying materials that are used in making the big time stuff you can expect them to come knocking. Especially in this social climate.
 Ramuh.Dasva
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By Ramuh.Dasva 2010-07-30 19:07:44
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Also alot of older stuff we used to use is very radioactive. Like old paint I think was pretty bad. Find/build some sort of geiger counter and shouldn't be too hard to track down.

Then of course there is smoke detectors, radium dials, some current paints, divers watches just some stuff off the top of my head
 Sylph.Kirisawa
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By Sylph.Kirisawa 2010-07-30 19:09:27
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Fenrir.Terminus said:
Most glaringly is the fact that no US state can oppose any US Federal Law (on paper, anyway.)
That's a good theory... but it's being debunked on a pretty regular basis nowadays. For example: California has proposed and/or passed at least three legislative actions in the past two years that attempted to supercede federal law. The justification is that the issues in question (e.g. the use of marijuana for non-medicinal purposes) should be mandated and regulated at a State level as opposed to a Federal level.

Even if there is an existing federal agency with jurisdiction over the specific issue in question (see: the FDA).

orz.

For many other issues though, where the regulation occurs is not so black-and-white as it should be.

The only "real" power the federal government has over individual state governments is to withhold federal financial benefits; they cannot legally impose any form of financial or legal sanctions on a state government itself. The US Supreme Court can step in and deem a state law federally unconstitutional, but a state can also deem the same law as valid under the state constitution. At that point, the state legislature has its hands tied, as it (apparently) can neither grant nor repeal the law in question. If it is a financial reform issue, the federal government can withhold grant or incentive money from the state, but cannot in any way force the law into non-existence.

I am not sure exactly how criminal law is handled when this occurs... but I guess we'll find out when homosexual marriage and/or recreational marijuana use hit the US Supreme Court.

... Getting back on point, I don't see how this is much different than the differing laws of the EU nations.
 Titan.Ellid
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By Titan.Ellid 2010-07-30 19:18:32
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Ramuh.Vinvv said:
Titan.Ellid said:
Ramuh.Vinvv said:
Titan.Ellid said:
Fenrir.Terminus said:
Titan.Ellid said:
I think the key-word is countries or states.

I'm not being argumentative, the USA is a collective of countries, so is the EU, so it is fair to make a comparison between them.

Whoa whoa whoa. The US was intended to be more like how you describe, but in practice it is anything but. Individual states (as in US provinces, not countries) are restricted much more than the members of the EU. There is much more than the shared currency, open borders and mutual protection. Most glaringly is the fact that no US state can oppose any US Federal Law (on paper, anyway.) And just about everything that is regulated is regulated to Federal standards. Governors of US States do command the National Guard of that state, however they can only use them for emergency response - natural disasters, or riots. They cannot form any kind of treaty or alliance with a foreign nation. They don't have any kind of citizenship particular to each state.

I don't know whether it's appropriate or not to count the entire EU as a single economy. But US States are no more sovereign than individual Canadian or Australian provinces.


Fair enough but it's still the same for the EU. As a member you agree to use the federal laws of the EU and have your own state laws. Just because they are less intrusive than the US doesn't mean they are not the same.
I lol'd at their projected budget in comparison to UKz expenditures.

Yeah, I like to think I own a piece of a grass in estonia somewhere for my money (don't even know if estonia is a member)
I'd say it's never good to make commonsensical arguments here for the most part when trying to make a point here.
especially when your point is about a country you know nothing about, and especially when you don't know necessarily enough about your own.
Just makes people think you are dumbass when you link to wiki to prove your points.
Being right is only satisfying when you are right(not wiki).
and the legitimacy of wiki is questionably in all honesty.
I own about 2 or 3 families on welfare.

Your feedback has been noted.
I will not link to other sites anymore when people ask for evidence.

And I'm not trying to make a point about a country I know nothing about, I'm trying to say it's ok to compare the EU to the US economically.
 Siren.Catabolic
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By Siren.Catabolic 2010-07-30 19:21:22
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which was where the argument started. The point that stuck out to me was it takes nearly three times the US population for EU to barely surpass our economy.
 Fenrir.Terminus
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By Fenrir.Terminus 2010-07-30 19:22:25
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Sylph.Kirisawa said:
Fenrir.Terminus said:
Most glaringly is the fact that no US state can oppose any US Federal Law (on paper, anyway.)
That's a good theory... but it's being debunked on a pretty regular basis nowadays. For example: California has proposed and/or passed at least three legislative actions in the past two years that attempted to supercede federal law. The justification is that the issues in question (e.g. the use of marijuana for non-medicinal purposes) should be mandated and regulated at a State level as opposed to a Federal level.

Even if there is an existing federal agency with jurisdiction over the specific issue in question (see: the FDA).

orz.

For many other issues though, where the regulation occurs is not so black-and-white as it should be.

The only "real" power the federal government has over individual state governments is to withhold federal financial benefits; they cannot legally impose any form of financial or legal sanctions on a state government itself. The US Supreme Court can step in and deem a state law federally unconstitutional, but a state can also deem the same law as valid under the state constitution. At that point, the state legislature has its hands tied, as it (apparently) can neither grant nor repeal the law in question. If it is a financial reform issue, the federal government can withhold grant or incentive money from the state, but cannot in any way force the law into non-existence.

I am not sure exactly how criminal law is handled when this occurs... but I guess we'll find out when homosexual marriage and/or recreational marijuana use hit the US Supreme Court.

... Getting back on point, I don't see how this is much different than the differing laws of the EU nations.



Yeah, the Federal superseding State is a joke to me, the way things are played out. I did only mean that that's how it's supposed to be, not really how it is.

I do like your point about the Federal Government's ability to enforce that, though. I like it because you're right, but also because it lets me think that if/when a state is finally fed up with... things... they could actually try to split from the Union. Which I would really respect. (But don't really expect.) You're right, too... back on topic time!
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By Odin.Akuki 2010-07-30 19:44:43
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Siren.Catabolic said:
then break it down in terms of overall population. US population is roughly 307 million people, whereas the EU population is roughly 831.4 million. So breaking it down in terms of sheer numbers then yes it takes nearly three times the amount of ppl from EU to match or now barely surpass americas economy
plz check that - its wrong ^^
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 Valefor.Argettio
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By Valefor.Argettio 2010-07-30 19:47:39
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Siren.Catabolic said:
which was where the argument started. The point that stuck out to me was it takes nearly three times the US population for EU to barely surpass our economy.

Population of the full EU: 501 million
Population of the EU in the euro: 328 million
Population of the USA: 308 million

The total EU population is less than twice the USA population and the population of the single currency (euro zone) and the USA is close (6% difference)

So I am not sure where you are getting "nearly three times" from.
 Ragnarok.Harpunnik
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By Ragnarok.Harpunnik 2010-07-30 20:17:25
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Jaerik,

If that headline really interested you I have a book suggestion for you. Its called "In the next 100 years" by George Friedman.

He actually devotes a good section of the book to China, and referring to it as the paper tiger. Without ruining too much for you, he discussed in depth about challenges China faces in staying a stable economic powerhouse. One main reason is the friction between the rich coastal areas of China and the rest of the country which is dirt poor. He also adds in the historical politcal cycles in that country, including their policies on trading with the rest of the world. It gets even more complicated once he starts talking about Japan one day again looking towards China for their natural resource needs.

I really didn't read much of the thread tbh. But the book also addresses labor shortages worldwide later this century, which is fascinating due to his hypothesis of an eventual population shrinkage crisis.

In case anyone is curious the other predicted super powers in the 21st century (besides the US) will be Japan, Turkey, and Poland. Its sounds very very funny, but he's got some very good supporting arguements in the book.

Again, highly recommended, from a galka that doesnt read much ^^
 Fenrir.Schutz
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By Fenrir.Schutz 2010-07-30 20:35:29
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Ragnarok.Harpunnik said:
I really didn't read much of the thread tbh. But the book also addresses labor shortages worldwide later this century, which is fascinating due to his hypothesis of an eventual population shrinkage crisis.

That's what you get for not reading the whole thread--on page 4 we talked at length about Friedman's book and already refuted the notion of a geo-economically-stratified China, vis-a-vis the economic zoning found in late 20th century US and Russia's coastal regions.

Just joking. On page 4 we talked about making drugs out of cough syrup and on page 5 how to make home-made nuclear bombs.
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 Siren.Catabolic
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By Siren.Catabolic 2010-07-30 20:36:47
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Valefor.Argettio said:
Siren.Catabolic said:
which was where the argument started. The point that stuck out to me was it takes nearly three times the US population for EU to barely surpass our economy.

Population of the full EU: 501 million
Population of the EU in the euro: 328 million
Population of the USA: 308 million

The total EU population is less than twice the USA population and the population of the single currency (euro zone) and the USA is close (6% difference)

So I am not sure where you are getting "nearly three times" from.

831.4 million total. Over 500 million currently use euro or currency pegged to the euro. You can't pick and choose which parts of EU represent you financially if you're speaking as a whole. Us population is 307,005,000. So even if you got nit picky its still over a 200 million person difference.
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By Titan.Ellid 2010-07-30 20:42:30
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Siren.Catabolic said:
Valefor.Argettio said:
Siren.Catabolic said:
which was where the argument started. The point that stuck out to me was it takes nearly three times the US population for EU to barely surpass our economy.

Population of the full EU: 501 million
Population of the EU in the euro: 328 million
Population of the USA: 308 million

The total EU population is less than twice the USA population and the population of the single currency (euro zone) and the USA is close (6% difference)

So I am not sure where you are getting "nearly three times" from.

831.4 million total. Over 500 million currently use euro or currency pegged to the euro. You can't pick and choose which parts of EU represent you financially if you're speaking as a whole. Us population is 307,005,000. So even if you got nit picky its still over a 200 million person difference.

Well hell, you might as well add the population of China to the US since their currency is pegged to the US dollar.
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By Ragnarok.Harpunnik 2010-07-30 20:44:24
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Fenrir.Schutz said:
Ragnarok.Harpunnik said:
I really didn't read much of the thread tbh. But the book also addresses labor shortages worldwide later this century, which is fascinating due to his hypothesis of an eventual population shrinkage crisis.
That's what you get for not reading the whole thread--on page 4 we talked at length about Friedman's book and already refuted the notion of a geo-economically-stratified China, vis-a-vis the economic zoning found in late 20th century US and Russia's coastal regions. Just joking. On page 4 we talked about making drugs out of cough syrup and on page 5 how to make home-made nuclear bombs.


Lol I like the cut of your jib.
 Siren.Catabolic
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By Siren.Catabolic 2010-07-30 20:45:30
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Titan.Ellid said:
Siren.Catabolic said:
Valefor.Argettio said:
Siren.Catabolic said:
which was where the argument started. The point that stuck out to me was it takes nearly three times the US population for EU to barely surpass our economy.

Population of the full EU: 501 million
Population of the EU in the euro: 328 million
Population of the USA: 308 million

The total EU population is less than twice the USA population and the population of the single currency (euro zone) and the USA is close (6% difference)

So I am not sure where you are getting "nearly three times" from.

831.4 million total. Over 500 million currently use euro or currency pegged to the euro. You can't pick and choose which parts of EU represent you financially if you're speaking as a whole. Us population is 307,005,000. So even if you got nit picky its still over a 200 million person difference.

Well hell, you might as well add the population of China to the US since their currency is pegged to the US dollar.

The currency pegged to the Euro are from "Countries" that are a part of EU. China is not one of the recognized "States" of the USA.
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By Randomguy 2010-07-30 21:23:07
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Siren.Catabolic said:
Titan.Ellid said:
Siren.Catabolic said:
Valefor.Argettio said:
Siren.Catabolic said:
which was where the argument started. The point that stuck out to me was it takes nearly three times the US population for EU to barely surpass our economy.

Population of the full EU: 501 million
Population of the EU in the euro: 328 million
Population of the USA: 308 million

The total EU population is less than twice the USA population and the population of the single currency (euro zone) and the USA is close (6% difference)

So I am not sure where you are getting "nearly three times" from.

831.4 million total. Over 500 million currently use euro or currency pegged to the euro. You can't pick and choose which parts of EU represent you financially if you're speaking as a whole. Us population is 307,005,000. So even if you got nit picky its still over a 200 million person difference.

Well hell, you might as well add the population of China to the US since their currency is pegged to the US dollar.

The currency pegged to the Euro are from "Countries" that are a part of EU. China is not one of the recognized "States" of the USA.
Not going against you, but to reinforce your post.

Some countries in the EU do not have the Euro and wish to not be on it (I don't blame you UK).

Some countries are trying to get on the Euro, for whatever reason (hi2u Czech Rep.).

Some countries are on the Euro and are bringing the whole system down (hi2u Greece).

What Cata is saying is that the countries in the second category are the ones who are technically not being counted by Argettio's numbers, but are still using the Euro for it's currency, or accepting it for various transactions in hope of being one of the nations to use it only. There is a reason why the Euro has such high expectations of a country before it gets accepted as the "national" currency.

But that doesn't mean that the country can't "accept" Euros. While visiting Prague a couple of summers ago, I was able to buy stuff with the "local" and "Euro" currencies. Even though at the time Czech Republic wasn't currently (if they have been accepted by now, I don't know) under "Euro" standards, the businesses and country still accepted them for transactions...
 Valefor.Argettio
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By Valefor.Argettio 2010-07-31 12:34:28
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Siren.Catabolic said:
Valefor.Argettio said:
Siren.Catabolic said:
which was where the argument started. The point that stuck out to me was it takes nearly three times the US population for EU to barely surpass our economy.

Population of the full EU: 501 million
Population of the EU in the euro: 328 million
Population of the USA: 308 million

The total EU population is less than twice the USA population and the population of the single currency (euro zone) and the USA is close (6% difference)

So I am not sure where you are getting "nearly three times" from.

831.4 million total. Over 500 million currently use euro or currency pegged to the euro. You can't pick and choose which parts of EU represent you financially if you're speaking as a whole. Us population is 307,005,000. So even if you got nit picky its still over a 200 million person difference.

I would like to know where you are getting your numbers from.

As I am using: Link to EU commission's own stats site

Edit: and I am not sure why you are talking about currency pegging as that isn't used in the calculation for the size of the economy.
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By Kujata.Akeda 2010-07-31 23:10:01
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Quote:
Most glaringly is the fact that no US state can oppose any US Federal Law


Unless said state succeeds from the union, which I hope Arizona does cause then I'd be first in line to move there, but that's a bit off topic.


China has a huge economy because you can do morally and politically incorrect things and get away with it. Which I find quite amusing that they're a communist nation but have no qualms about supporting and implementing capitalist ideas.


I think with the right laws, incentives, and the deportation of all the bleeding heart liberal environmentalists the US would be a industrial powerhouse that would put China to shame.
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By Lakshmi.Jaerik 2010-07-31 23:56:17
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Kujata.Akeda said:
I think with the right laws, incentives, and the deportation of all the bleeding heart liberal environmentalists the US would be a industrial powerhouse that would put China to shame.
Unfortunately, real life isn't so polarized and easy to explain. A lot of those bleeding heart liberal European countries have higher per capita GDP's than the US. And a lot don't.
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 Phoenix.Destrac
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By Phoenix.Destrac 2010-08-01 00:19:43
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Kujata.Akeda said:

I think with the right laws, incentives, and the deportation of all the bleeding heart liberal environmentalists the US would be a industrial powerhouse that would put China to shame.

I would be that liberal environmentalist you mention. You are welcome for helping you guys not live in a shitty polluted place like



or



or

 Ramuh.Dasva
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By Ramuh.Dasva 2010-08-01 00:46:21
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Clearly you haven't been to Fresno... and some other parts of cali
 Phoenix.Destrac
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By Phoenix.Destrac 2010-08-01 01:21:18
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I've been to LA, SF, Houston, Dallas, Beijing, Shanghai and Guangzhou. Pollution in China's cities is incomparable.

A decent standard of living is the goal of the regular person right? A strong economy and industry should be a means to that end, not an end in itself. China can have the highest GDP in the world and I wouldn't want to live in its cities, not just because of horrible pollution, but also because of lack of basic human rights and freedoms.

But I guess I'm on a tangent, since most of this discussion is about national pride and not about practicalities like utilitarianism and standard of living.
 
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 Unicorn.Celestius
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By Unicorn.Celestius 2010-08-01 02:39:58
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this thread makes no sense. China doesnt have a seperate economy, they need our money funneled thru Walmart or they are where they have been for 400 years, up to their knees in a rice patty.
 
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By Bahamut.Kaioshin 2010-08-01 03:17:07
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Asura.Ludoggy said:
The sleeping giant has awaken.

Awoken*
 Asura.Ludoggy
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By Asura.Ludoggy 2010-08-01 03:27:13
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Bahamut.Kaioshin said:
Asura.Ludoggy said:
The sleeping giant has awaken.

Awoken*
Reasons why I passed my English classes with a D.
 Ragnarok.Anye
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By Ragnarok.Anye 2010-08-01 03:43:15
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Bahamut.Kaioshin said:
Asura.Ludoggy said:
The sleeping giant has awaken.

Awoken*
"has awakened" also works; the verbs "to awake" and "to awaken" are conjugated separately to confuse pretty much everyone:

InfinitivePast TensePast Participle
To awakeAwokeAwaked or Awoken
To awakenAwakenedAwakened
 
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 Bahamut.Kaioshin
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By Bahamut.Kaioshin 2010-08-01 03:49:49
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Ragnarok.Anye said:
Bahamut.Kaioshin said:
Asura.Ludoggy said:
The sleeping giant has awaken.
Awoken*
"has awakened" also works; the verbs "to awake" and "to awaken" are conjugated separately to confuse pretty much everyone:
InfinitivePast TensePast Participle
To awakeAwokeAwaked or Awoken
To awakenAwakenedAwakened

I see what you did thur.

I see it.
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