Koggelmander Vs Soulsaber 4STR 12ATK

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Koggelmander vs Soulsaber 4STR 12ATK
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 Remora.Brain
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By Remora.Brain 2010-05-26 23:36:48
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OK, so I've been thinking a bit about what would be my best option for my offhand until my true Antea is finished.

Koggelmander or the new 4STR/12ATK augmented Soulsaber.

Currently, my gear sits me at a grand total of 355atk without food or buffs.



DoT:

This means if I were to compare Swords, Soulsaber would grant me 3.361% more ATK so it would increase my Ratio by about 3.3% on something like colibri.

Koggelmander also has a slightly lower delay, making its DPS 2.861% higher.

Ignoring the 4DEX for a second,when DWing, the advantage shifts more favorably for the Soulsaber. It should take well over 500 attack for the Soulsaber's attack+ to lose out to Koggelmander's greater speed.

Big 3 Spell Casts:
Koggelmander should add 0-11 damage to your Big 3 spells.

WSs:
The Attack boost on Soulsaber makes it the clear winner in terms of WS damage.

So overall I think the Soulsaber is the choice for me. I tend to solo a lot and go unbuffed. This makes the Soulsaber's attack account for more. Also, if I'm BLU/THF on something larger, say a sky god, and meleeing for cannonball tp, the Soulsaber would be a clear winner as it can help reduce the 0s.
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 Fenrir.Gradd
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By Fenrir.Gradd 2010-05-26 23:44:49
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You have to take into consideration that Kogg a godly weapon because of the 4DEX/STR which are main mods for the Big three~

The majority of your Dmg on Blue Mage is from your spells~

Attk does nothing for Blue Magic spells, id rather go for the straight mods but thats just me~
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 Remora.Brain
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By Remora.Brain 2010-05-26 23:53:07
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I covered the mods. 4DEX is 0-11 damage on big 3 spells.

Sacrificing Melee and WS damage for Spell damage is only smart if there's a net gain in damage.

I also never said ATK affected Blue Magic.
 Gilgamesh.Samuraiking
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By Gilgamesh.Samuraiking 2010-05-26 23:56:48
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***'s situational really. Depends on what you're doing, what sub, buffs ect.

Essentially it's free, so go get it? I'm not sure exactly what you're doing. Are you supposed to be stating facts and come to the conclusion that for the things you named, soulsaber offhanded is the best, or were you asking for input?

I'd still do MMM and go for Kogglemander for /nin with the big 3 tbh, but they're both technically free so I'd go get them both.
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 Fenrir.Gradd
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By Fenrir.Gradd 2010-05-27 00:01:15
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It depends on your buffs and what your fighting, on weaker ***where your attk is capped Kogg would probrably pull ahead.

On stuff with higher defense youd want to focus more on attk for melee dmg.

They are both good weapons, I just have a hard time giving up Kogg considering what a pain in the *** it was to get~
 Remora.Brain
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By Remora.Brain 2010-05-27 00:05:09
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I was asking for input and providing info kinda I guess. I kinda came to my own conclusion after fiddling with the math. I only really have room for one, and it'll be a cannonball only piece once my Antea is finished.
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By Caitsith.Katas 2010-05-27 00:08:11
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Why not main hand Kog and offhand Soul? I have never understood the Antea hype, forgive me, I am not being rude. However in most situations I am placed in, I am there to cast spells not feed TP. I understand the ammount of tp fed to a given mob with the casting of spells but add that with a multi hit weapon and seems silly in alot of cases. However I am heavy on spell damage side of blu and if your play style is melee, I can respect a difference in play style.
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 Caitsith.Katas
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By Caitsith.Katas 2010-05-27 00:11:32
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As far as cannonball swords Wing sword+1 if you can find it or if you have friends try the lyft scimitar pending stats and ammount of people in pt while using it.
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 Remora.Brain
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By Remora.Brain 2010-05-27 00:16:27
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I mainhand the amazing Perdu Hanger.

If tp feed is a problem, it's probably not a mob you're /NIN to, so Antea wouldn't be needed. If you're /NIN, then Antea will give you more damage than a Koggel/Soul would add to spells unless your gear is gawdawful.

I personally am of the school of Blue Mage that believes melee is an essential, and oft overlooked part of Blue Mage.
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By Gilgamesh.Samuraiking 2010-05-27 00:16:30
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I generally get enough tp for 2-3 ws before affinities are back up, antea doesn't look good to me at all. If your doing anything good endgame you will be using one sword only, most likely /thf. If you are in limbus/merits where you sub ninja, stat swords are what you're going for, you're there to spam headbutt and the big 3, the only thing you're meleeing for is for self-sc and extra dmg really, it should never be your main focus over spell casting.

GL on your antea and ***, but for real, it isn't that great. I just don't see a practical use for it. If blu wasn't so busy casting maybe I could understand it, but swords aren't really huge dmg weapons. Perdu is nice for the acc bonuses and such but antea....
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 Caitsith.Katas
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By Caitsith.Katas 2010-05-27 00:23:30
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Agreed, even with having access to all listed swords, you should be able to bring your acc up in other areas or not even need it pending on what you are fighting. If you need acc use food, perdu is nice, but with the kog/soul combo is out of date unless you absolutely need the acc. I will preempt the "birds eat food" discussion and state crab sushi is cheap, and you can get to the acc cap with out food as far as spell casting as aside from vorp blade with a good setup we have no strong ws' to spam unless scing with ourselves.
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 Fenrir.Gradd
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By Fenrir.Gradd 2010-05-27 00:27:41
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My personal Opinion about sword is that its the worste weapon in the game... Other than Atonement sword WS area joke unfortunatley, something SE needs to fix. I do higher Damage meleeing on my WHM with Hexa Strike than I do on my BLU or PLD using Vorpal Blade, its kind of sad :/

I do think for soloing Antea could be a pretty bad *** weapon for blu though, if I wasnt so damn lazy about the Magian quests id probrably work on that~

But SK is right when your asked to show up on BLU to an event like limbus its usually because they want you to spam head butt :/ and The Big Three will be your primary source of dmg. I know for salvage if were doing frogs the only reason I am on blu is for head butt to stop frog chorus.

For HNM your probrably not going to be meleeing at all, I know for Ixion I wont go anywhere near melee Range on BLU, same for Odin.
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 Caitsith.Katas
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By Caitsith.Katas 2010-05-27 00:33:45
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Multi hit has promise, along with Concordia with evoliths however we wont know till it is finished and SE seems to lack the ...whats the words I want to use....follow up to their small projects the hype up so much. However with multi hit sword and a decent or broken ws it could be promising, however we will see.
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 Gilgamesh.Samuraiking
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By Gilgamesh.Samuraiking 2010-05-27 00:37:04
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Want to also add that you're slightly confused. You don't belong to a special club that knows the lost arts of blu and that they should be hardcore on melee. I understand fully the importance of good swords as far as melee dmg, but there's a limit where spells take over. No you shouldn't use a level 1 sword with 2DMG because it has +6str, but i'm sure you have the common sense to work out that's not what I meant.

Overlooked isn't the correct word, "understands" that stats will generally bring a higher boost if there isn't a huge dmg gap in the swords. If you want to be a TP King and use multihit weapons, I'd suggest that you level sam with soboro tbh. BLU has very many things they can do, being a straight up melee DD isn't one of them. The more you cast spells, which you should be spamming headbutt and using the big 3, hell sometimes you might even have to toss a magic fruit, slows down your overall sword speeds.

I know i'm coming off as saying BLU melee is low, or unimportant, but that's not the case. Katas pretty much filled in what I didn't say.

Anyway, there's many different ways to play BLU, I'm just trying to convey that as far as /nin, antea isn't really the best choice considering BLU is a magic casting job, that casts very often.
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 Seraph.Tsuchinoko
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By Seraph.Tsuchinoko 2010-05-27 00:42:58
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Soulsaber (STR) better for VC and/or death scissors on /thf. other wise kogg is better on /nin. Probably better on campaign battles then normal partying.
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By Odin.Blazza 2010-05-27 00:47:23
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I really don't care about weapon particulars as much as I probably should, but someone actually asked me a very similar question last night, here's my response. Disagree all you like, this is how I see it.
PM said:
Hey there Blazza!

I got another question for you! haha.. kinda been wondering what swords to use atm. Soulsaber/Hofud/Concordia/Antea/Koggel etc. There are a lot of different ones atm

i been wondering if its worth replacing Koggel by Concordia since ima bout to finish Antea (high dmg) soon.

Greetings from "Name Removed"

Odin.Blazza2010-05-25 10:14:20
Ha ha, I don't have a single one of those swords. Koggel will always be a good stat sword, Concordia with good augs (Frostmane, Firedance Magmaal Ja and Autarch) is one of the best melee swords you can get (not sure what effect the physical blue magic attack + does). Hofud will always be one of the best for survivability thanks to hp/mp drain, although a lot less useful if you're fighting something with no mp or an undead mob.

Soulsaber with STR+4 (I assume?) is pretty good, and makes Soulsaber and Koggelmander the best spell set-up (depending on whether you need acc on your sword). But that also depends on what effect physical blue magic attack +2 has if you have that on your Concordia. Concordia is by far the best ws sword you can get, especially with Antea in off-hand, which makes it good for low refresh situations. And again, depending on that physical blue magic attack +2, could be one of the best all round.

As for what I would do in different situations if I had all this.

While fighting a lot of mobs with MP or soloing, I'd use Hofud/Antea.

Most everyday situations I'd use Concordia/Antea.

If I'm fighting big stuff where my melee really isn't gonna do much, or I have a lot of refresh, it'd be Soulsaber/Koggel or Concordia/Koggel, or perhaps even perdu/Erlking's for full acc if it's required.

I still need to get my Koggelmander, I'm 0/100 or thereabouts (I ***you not, that's no exaggeration) but I'm never going to bother with Soulsaber, I've been pretty happy with my 44DMG, 3acc 3macc Erlking's and off-handing beast slayer for a long time, so I'll replace beast slayer for koggel when I finally get it. I also swap beast slayer for perdu if I want a little acc boost.

Always remember though, that as much of a tp/ws beast as Concordia/Antea is, you will ALWAYS put out more damage from your spells than from your swords, and this is what you should focus on. That's why I prefer acc, because I'd rather land every hit of disseverement every time if I can.
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By Odin.Blazza 2010-05-27 00:49:03
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Seraph.Tsuchinoko said:
Soulsaber (STR) better for VC and/or death scissors on /thf. other wise kogg is better on /nin. Probably better on campaign battles then normal partying.
Unless I'm missing something, they're both +4 STR? That makes them exactly the same for STR only spells.
 Seraph.Tsuchinoko
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By Seraph.Tsuchinoko 2010-05-27 00:57:08
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Odin.Blazza said:
Seraph.Tsuchinoko said:
Soulsaber (STR) better for VC and/or death scissors on /thf. other wise kogg is better on /nin. Probably better on campaign battles then normal partying.
Unless I'm missing something, they're both 4 STR? That makes them exactly the same for STR only spells.
I meant as for a str focus in campaign battles. Where you can play with your spells a bit more.
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By Odin.Blazza 2010-05-27 01:04:27
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Well if you're only talking about spells, then Koggelmander is better than Soulsaber, as the difference between the two is attack 14 vs DEX 4. Since attack does nothing for spells, that puts Koggelmander pretty clearly in front. The only real use I see for Soulsaber is to pair it with Koggelmander for a total of +8 STR, which until now was only possible via Vulcan's Staff and Axe Grip. Or, and this isn't such a big deal to me, is pairing with Perdu to boost your attack enough to eliminate hits for 0 on gods.
 Remora.Brain
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By Remora.Brain 2010-05-27 01:50:29
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Some dumbass that thinks melee doesn't count for much has no right to be condescending to me.

Lets look at Koggelmander vs Antea.

Koggelmander DPS: 11.52

Antea DPS: 12.72

That's a whopping 10% more DPS, and you're telling me that 4more STR/DEX is worth more than 5% of your melee DoT and at least 10% more WS damage?

You either don't know how damage works, or you just suck that bad.

I'll continue in a couple hours, I have to AFK for now.
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By Caitsith.Katas 2010-05-27 01:59:48
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His point is more spell casting which is stat based rather than melee. If you are casting as much as you should be, the stats on the swords which mod the spells will be more beneficial rather then the damage on the swords melee aspect. Overall most blus opt for spell casting as it will kill the melee heavy blus, more spell casting = less swings. This is obvious within a blu burn on Greater Colib if you have ever gotten the chance to experience a good burn before.
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 Gilgamesh.Samuraiking
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By Gilgamesh.Samuraiking 2010-05-27 02:16:26
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I lol'd.

I was also trying not to rip into you and be an ***, but then you call me a dumbass? Katas beat me to it and said it 10x nicer than I would have.

You enjoy running your melee stats that do NOT factor in spellcasting time/delays on swings because of it and do less dmg than most blus, that is your choice. I will also not bother commenting any farther after this post as you're apparently ignorant and oblivious to blu as you just proved by trying to run it like a mnk or sam.

If you want to discuss swords and how the work like a big boy do so, but don't act like a little kid when ppl disagree with you. You can use w/e you want, but with that way you're doing your "math" it will be completely skewed and wrong.

It's because ppl don't know or learn about their jobs that they get bad reps. I see very little blus these days in any events, and I NEVER see them in any merits because ppl run them into the ground with bad gear choices and actions, while calling anyone who tries to help them "dumbasses" lol...

God you make me laugh, I even made another post about melee to pre-emptive strike you're HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE response before you made it, and you still didn't read it.
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 Leviathan.Draylo
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By Leviathan.Draylo 2010-05-27 02:21:02
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Damn Brain is a tool.
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 Fenrir.Gradd
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By Fenrir.Gradd 2010-05-27 03:48:08
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Your playing the wrong job if you are expecting to do dmg w/ melee on BLU and have it shine, your strength comes from your spells, like I said earlier sword in general is a joke unless your using Atonement(PLD Only) or your a WAR dual Wielding Organics/Ridill, WAR is the only job that can pull off good dmg with Sword, and even then a WAR not using a GA is just wrong.

If you want to play a job thats all about DPS try out MNK~ Sadly because of X-Hit Builds and such DPS means very little in this game~ For Example the Subduer GS has higher DPS than Naglering, but because Naglering has an easy 6-hit it easily wipes the floor with Subduer in overall dmg because of faster WS Spam. I know thats a DRK topic, but just giving an example of DPS meaning jack ***in this game.

BLU is a combat mage yes, but your focus in dmg should still be your spells... this is not a job where melee dmg shines at all, if you just sat there building TP and spamming vorpal blade instead of using your magic then something is truly wrong. If you are asked to show up BLU to an event its most likley because they want you to spam head butt which kills your DPS that you love so much~ and that is because it benefits the party whether you like it or not.
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 Ramuh.Dasva
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By Ramuh.Dasva 2010-05-27 05:34:14
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Given the amount I generally melee on blu I'd say koggles beats soulsaber.

Since as previously said your there for your spells. I mean sure you can ride there as a sorta melee pld with triumphant roar on and def down on the mob and hit good dmg but then why are you on blu at that point lol.

Also highly dependent on how fast the mobs come and how fast you gain mp and such.

Though with the dex/acc might allow different food/gear options which might be interesting
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By Shiva.Superdan 2010-05-27 06:08:02
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Quote isn't working, so @Brain

I'm no pro blu but.. Point is you're never going to be putting out a constant 12.72 sword dps as blu. You're going to be casting majority of the time, and thus the sword DPS isn't going to be that much of a difference. While I do not doubt blu ws's can do good damage, fact of the matter is you can do much more with spells, and that's what you're supposed to utalise. Also, Blu is not just a dps class, you should be providing some support in majority of situations via head butt or fruits. Head butt alone should be casted every 5s.



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By Ramuh.Dasva 2010-05-27 06:13:48
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Oh yeah and except when I'm put in a melee pt with lots of external haste and/or very little refresh I generally wont get enough tp for a ws between chain affinities unless I don't CA every 2 min. Hell in Einharjar I often don't even get 100% tp in that 2min.

I figure antea should allow said ws and an extra ws every 2min would probably beat out 1 swds increase to spell dmg. Especially if it is allowing you to self skillchain when you couldn't before
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By Remora.Brain 2010-05-27 06:36:02
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Most of you seem to be lacking reading comprehension skills.

Not once have I ever said to not bother with spell damage.

But you must be HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE if you think that sacrificing a lot of damage somewhere, for a little damage somewhere else, is an improvement.

Now, if you're going to be Head Butt Spamming, then Head Butt spam. Also, the swords you'd want for that are 10MACC Soulsabers, and the mob should actually be dangerous enough to warrant Head Butt spam instead of you being a giant waste of a party spot because you're not contributing anything but ***they didn't need.

Also, I was talking about damage while /NIN. Not Head Butt ***. Most of you BLUs focus on your spells too *** much and neglect melee altogether, I'm surprised one of you hater tards hasn't jumped in to suggest Ifrit's Blade yet.

When focusing on Damage, say in a merit party or a simple Temenos run, your spell damage is limited by your mp flow. Generally speaking, for mobs you can't Aspir, your MP Flow will hover between 5-6mp a tick. Lets say you're riding Disseverment pretty hard, since it would gain the most from +4STR/DEX here. So you get enough MP for a Disseverment every 13 ticks, which is ~39 Seconds.

+4STR/DEX is at very best, 3 base damage, and at worst 1 base damage. Ok, so 3 base damage over essentially 5.5 hits (Disseverment's first hit has a 1.5fTP mod). That's 16.5, so lets round it up to 17 to give it more of an edge. Pretend you have an Average pDIF value of 1.5 (Which with capped merits, perfect gear, and Dia III on a lowly Greater Colibri, you'll never reach) and you come out to ~25 extra damage every 39 seconds in conditions beyond optimal.

Seriously, with standard party buffs, if you can't do more that 25 extra damage in 39 seconds with an OAT weapon, you must suck extremely hardcore.

When I'm out to deal damage, I don't focus on just spell damage, I focus on my total damage, something that is more important.

I push Blue Mage as far is I can go with it, whatever I do with it, be it stunning, nuking, meleeing, Big 3, or /THF. I'm also constantly improving my understanding and gear through ambition, experience, and parsers.
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 Ramuh.Dasva
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By Ramuh.Dasva 2010-05-27 06:54:57
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While presented in a rather brash and offensive way he does have a point
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By Valefor.Argettio 2010-05-27 07:07:46
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BLU without MP does less damage and a PLD.

If some one could tell me the typical Spell:TP:WS split for a BLU with 'enough' MP then I could work out which is better.

But even without putting numbers to it, I am pretty sure Koggle wins.

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