Dnc Vs Thf Dmg

I know this is gonna be kinda off-the-wall but you'd think that thf with blau main would out dmg a dnc with behe knife +1 (just on ws's..dancing edge specifically) However after working on my trials for dakini in Uleguerand Range I found my dnc was doing more ws dmg than my thf. Both use the same macro gear (as much they both can wear). My dnc was putting out 1-1.3k DE's on variable hares while my thf was barely breaking 1k. The only difference I can mention is that my thf uses acid bolts to lower the mobs defence while my dnc uses a few steps..just enuf to stack 5 finishing moves. So like lvl 3-4 daze. I use the same food for both so this leaves me wondeirng just how strong are dnc's steps? Has anyone else noticed this?

ps. I'm not going to list the gear and have this turn into a flame thread where ppl start bitchin about what to use where and this is better than that etc etc. Just know that the gear is equal.

Well if you're "barely breaking 1k" while solo'ing, then once you add sneak attack/trick attack, ect. Don't see how you're not going to beat the dnc's dmg.

Dancing edge has a mod of 30% dex and 40% char.

If you are mithra your thf will have 80 dex 48 chr where as your dnc will have 76 dex and 60 chr. I'm not sure if the stat boost of dncs chr would make that big of a difference though. It might also be that your dnc just has more acc assuming your dnc and thf have the same gear exactly then your dnc will have 10 more acc from the trait meaning it's more likely to hit all the hits of the ws.

edit' bah forgot thf has 13 more skill than dnc so what i said about acc is wrong all i can think is the mods and your dnc getitng lucky.

I'd call luck or maybe using whatever that flourish is that enhances attack. Or saberdance. Or merely ok gear for the thf since there is alot of good stuff for thf that dnc can't wear. Namely heca

Box Step is 5%>2%>2%>2%>2% for 13% total; acid bolt is 12.5%. I can't see why your DNC would be outdamaging your THF unless you're not mentioning Building Flourish and Sabre Dance. But assuming you're right about all else equal, THF will have higher DEX, +1 DMG and +19 attack just from skill and weapon alone. I'm probably forgetting other innate differences, but I'm tired.

I doubt it has something to do with a difference in accuracy. DNC gets +22 from traits, but THF gets +13*.9 from higher skill and another +5 from Blau Dolch. And it'd be sad if his accuracy wasn't already capped on a level 60 mob.

I also highly doubt the difference is dependent on 12 CHR.

It sounds most likely to me that your estimated ranges are inaccurate unless you parsed yourself. You could've just happened to land a DA or full hits on your DNC and are counting those ones. Did you pay attention to TP return? Did you kill bunnies with DE before some hits got off?

Dnc has accuracy bonus II trait. That's +22 ACC alone.

You can only get 8 hits max on a ws. Even though thf can proc triple attack now and then, DE is a 6 hit ws with dual wield. This means they will cap out at 8 hits. DNC can earn those 8 hits a lot easier than thf can with saber dance. 55% DA with brutal earring ensures this. There's also building flourish, which raises attack, accuracy, and critical hit rate of your next ws. This not only gives you a substantial boost on a 6-8 hit WS because of the attack, it also further ensures your lower acc from skill is more than compensated.

It's far from uncommon to see a good dnc out ws a decent thf. If the thf is great, however, the dnc won't do as much ws damage as them... Simply because they don't have hecatomb and such.

Not relevant here.

Ignore the other 2? It hasnt been tested but it's believed the attack is a larger number provided than berserk. You can also merit it for more attack. You're talking a 300-500 damage difference on greater colibri when you use building flourish.

Ignore? I'm just saying the crit rate isn't relevant, which implies the other two are. (or else all three would have been bolded)

But all you posted was "this part doesn't matter," basically. But, in all honesty a DNC's evisceration can be very good. The critical hit rate boost of building flourish is substantial, and at level 80 DNC will also get +30% more crit rate from /nin. This will make it that much better, and may even replace dancing edge as the DNC's primary WS at that point.

55% double attack giving you a reasonable chance to land 6, 7, or 8 hit ws's that can crit? Sounds fun.

Currently, the only time a good geared dnc will be out-wsed by a good thf is if the thf has the opportunity to stack both SA and TA. This isn't all that common, especially in merit pt's. Sure, they're able to land SA a lot, but it's usually not enough to put their numbers higher than a dnc's common output unless they have a relic of course. The fact that DNC can keep up with, and in some cases even beat thf's ws's makes it quite a contender. You don't NEED to SATA for your ws, making the job highly suited for solo and merit play while thf lacks that utility typically. It's hard and rare to get anyone to ever line up for SATA in a merit pt. And you sure can't get someone to line up for you solo.

Exactly, which means I think the other stuff does.


Assuming the JA isn't adjusted as a subjob.

I'm pretty certain that you can only proc two DAs on a ws, it was tested a while ago.

From Wiki:
Dagger weapon skill
Skill level: 200
Delivers a fivefold attack. Accuracy varies with TP.
Will stack with Sneak Attack.
Will stack with Trick Attack.
Aligned with the Breeze Gorget & Soil Gorget.

==
Dagger weapon skill
Skill level: 230 (Thieves, Corsairs, Red Mages, Warriors, Bards, Rangers, Beastmasters, Dancers and Ninja only.)
In order to obtain Evisceration, the quest Cloak and Dagger must be completed.
Delivers a fivefold attack. Chance of critical hit varies with TP.

==
Dual Wield Wiki:
During non-elemental Weapon Skills, an extra hit is performed with the secondary weapon. This does not apply to elemental Weapon Skills (such as Shining Strike) or special Weapon Skills such as Spirits Within.



Thus, Dancing Edge and Evisceration are 6 hit ws's as /nin. Double attack with each hand nets 8 hits.

Too bad SE has already said /nin will not give yonin/innin at lvl 80...

Where have they said this, though? All i've ever seen of this were the same people from those "other" communities making assumptions.

I've never seen a real interview or release of information from SE that discussed that, or the fact BLM will get meteor.
If innin/yonin get taken out then convert and aggressor damn sure better. But they already said they plan on leaving most jobs exactly the same as they are now when subbing them. That CAN be found in an interview.

You threw me off w/ the 6 7 or 8 hits. I wasn't even thinking of the ws tbh, I was just thinking 5 hit and you counting the DA procs. I agree w/ the 6 hit base as /nin and 2 da procs.

Even then though, I wouldn't call it reasonable chance.

.55 x .55 = 30% chance to get the two da procs and once you do get them, even w/ capped acc
.95^8 = 66% chance to actually land all 8

Mnk has same chance to land all hits of asuran fists. THF also has the same chance of landing all 8 hits they can obtain. Also, do the math of how often you'll hit 7 times with 55% double attack. Be CERTAIN to include the fact you have not once, but two 55% chances to make a 7 hit ws as dnc. The results will show that you'll hit 7 times most often, then i believe 8, then 6. Then do thf's chance to obtain 8 hits with triple attack proc. You'll see a very very substantial difference.

This is true, but mnk gets 8 hits every time. If you compound the 30% chance you have to even swing 8 times, and the 66% chance to land all hits

.3 x .66 = 19.8% chance to both obtain and land all hits of a dnc 8hit ws. as opposed to mnk's 66% chance of simply landing the 8 they throw.

Anyways, gotta hop on this plane. I'll get back on if it has wifi when it takes off.

I'm aware of that, was just saying getting and landing an 8hit ws on dnc isn't going to be common.

They let you have laptops/palm devices active on airplanes? D:

They always took mine away or made me keep them off and stored. I guess they hate asians!

And Veg: Roughly 20% chance to hit 8 times and land all 8 is actually substantial. A thf's will be a PORTION of that, giving DNC a major edge.

That's 1 out of every 5 ws's that will score and land 8 hits. You know you'd LOVE that 20% chance to get 7 hits on penta thrust!

At any rate, a dnc certainly stands 0 chance of defeating a great thf, as dnc doesn't have a relic and the mythic is a glorified piece of scrap metal. It'd be ok for TP gain since it gives you an extra chance to land a double attack with that hand, but it's not exceptional in any way. It's got low DMG, meaning its worthless in main hand. Which unless if i'm mistaken means you can't get the aftermath effect that increases acc/attack unless you sacrifice a highly noticeable amount of damage to mainhand it. In fact, the ONLY redeeming traits of it are the occ. attack twice (which isnt that necessary for dnc since they can already hit 55% double attack with any weapon they wield), and the augment to steps. It gives you 3 finishing moves instead of 2, meaning you only got to use 2 steps to cap out your finishing moves at 5 instead of the normal 3 required by any other weapon.

Essentially, dnc is SE's way of making a dagger job usable in everyday situations where THF doesn't excel, as it's difficult to SATA in anything that's not endgame post 75. So it's easy to believe a dnc can put numbers up that will outdo a thf quite often in situations such as solo and merit parties. I know i've personally outdone every thf i duo'ed with on my dnc, but i wouldn't say any of them were absolutely maxed in gear (but neither was i), and they certainly lacked mandau. You also got to look at dnc's TP gain though. Statistically, it will put thf to shame in tp gain AND DoT. And lets not forget that dnc benefits a pt's damage output too. Haste samba for 10% faster swings, and box step and quick step to lower defense and evasion respectively. You can argue an acid bolt will also lower defense, but dnc will land steps a whole lot easier on most things that matter.

I'm not saying DNC is always better than THF. Like i've said, an absolutely great thf with heca, etc can outdo a dnc's WS, but that's merely because DNC gets pretty terrible gear aside from their relic and such. But dnc will still probably WS faster unless the thf offhands m kris and feeds tp to the mob to the choking point. And DNC certainly has less endgame application than THF. I only ever used DNC endgame as a "haste-***" for the drk zerg pt. The extra 10% haste does help. And it doesnt add to the haste cap.



Also: Blau Dolch is NQ compared to the DNC/COR equivalent. (In response to the OP's comment about Blau thf)
Papilio Kirpan
DMG: 29 Delay: 201
Latent Effect: DMG: 35
Lv. 72 COR / DNC

Latent effect
Attack+14 Accuracy+5
Active when TP < 100% and during a Weapon Skill.


Blau Dolch
DMG: 26 Delay: 178
Latent effect: DMG: 33

Latent effect
Hidden Effects: Attack +16, Accuracy +5

Blau is stronger than the kirpan with the lower delay it have going for (blau's 11.12 DPS versus kirpan's 10.45). The kirpan seems to be more of a *** to get, too. DNC soloing with the kirpan is stronger than THF soloing with the blau due to the DNC's 10% haste to make blau's superiority of lower delay to be maybe null. Have THF and DNC fighting together, and the THF wins as the DNC's haste is shared.

Check the vanafest transcripts. I can't find the relevant video segment right now, sorry.

Anyway, the comparison seems slightly wieghted... even before JAs/gear you've got neither job WSing with their best mainhand dagger, but you're giving the THF a Blau and not even giving the DNC an Azoth. Pretty sure both jobs should be mainhanding a DEX Dakini these days, which evens the playing field somewhat. However, you said the DNC damage was higher, which means the answer probably lies in how you're approaching JA use on each job.

First Video 28:13 in..

Lol. No, a THF with a dagger that has a lower delay wouldn't be better than a DNC because of the lower delay.

A thf with full triple attack merits has a 10% triple attack rate. Now lets compare this:

Blau Dolch: Delay 178
Siroco Kukri: Delay 150
Combined: 328 delay.

papilio: Delay 201
Azoth: Delay 210
Combined: 411

Thf attacks every 5.46 secs for 10.9 turns a minute. (21.8 hits per minute)

Dnc attacks every 6.85 secs for 8.75 turns a minute. (17.5 hits per minute)

Thf hits 21.8 hits in that minute, with 10% netting triple they get 2.18 triple attacks. This means they earn a total of 26.16 attacks per minute.

Dnc hits 17.5 times in that 1 minute. With 55% double attack, 9.625 of those hits earn a double attack. Thus Dnc hits 27.125 times within that minute.

DNC clearly wins, and not ONLY do they nail more attacks in that minute, the daggers are both higher DMG, thus do MORE damage to the mob. They also gain more TP per hit because they are higher delay.

Note that i used 0% haste and 0% dual wield in this equation cuz it's meaningless. They both can get all the haste the other one can if they're in the same party.

Due to the fact that Saber dance deteriorates from +50% DA down to +30% before you can recast it though, DNC will progressively net fewer attacks but they will still have more DPS from higher WS's in most situations they'll be in, and from from higher normal hits. On top of that they also generate tp faster than the thf because the delay is higher.

Before dual wield or store tp effect anything, DNC would get 5.6 TP per hit while the THF in this example would get 4.8 tp per hit.

Lots of useful insight here thanks everyone. As I went to bed last night I remembered that DE has chr mod so this morning I checked my thf stats vs dnc stats... thf has dex 75 chr 52 versus dnc's dex (idk offhand since im sitting in ugly range atm) but I know CHR is 66. Would this big a difference in chr be enuf to affect dmg that much? I'm gonna play around a bit while I wait for firesday macroing in some chr gear on thf. And for the record I dont have saberdance and don't use building flourish that much.

THF does a lot better than DNC because of better gear, SA/TA, better WS options against harder mobs (Shark Bite and especially Mandalic Stab), etc etc.

dancer can use Shark Bite, but i agree that THF could do better than a DNC damage wise

Oops, I wasn't precise enough in my reasoning. Shark Bite is only really good when stacked with SA/TA (I know DNC has a JA which emulates this) so they can't push it as high as THF can typically.

I see. Thanks for the demonstration, I did not know the math. Cinquedea is a Sirocco Kukri equilvalent for DNC, so replace Azoth with that and the number of hits compared to THF becomes closer.

Papilio: Delay 201
Cinquedea: Delay 156
Combined: 358

5.95 secs for 10.08 turns a minute (20.1 hits per minute compared to THF's 21.9).

With brutal earring not accounting Saber Dance/TA trait (because you stacked it with DNC's Saber Dance?):

DNC: 21.1 hits per minute
THF: 22.9 hits per minute

With +55% DA rate, 11.605 of those hits earn a double attack. Thus DNC hits 32.705 times within that minute.

With +10% TA rate, THF gets 2.29 triple attacks getting 27.48 total hits per minute.

That's 5.225 more hits DNC gets than THF in the early moments of Saber Dance every 3-5 minutes (or 9.805 more when TA doesn't activate).

I stand corrected that DNC does win in some aspects.

Some of these posts are pretty irrelevant, like Papilio Kirpan or Hecatomb. The OP is clearly stating HIS DNC and HIS THF with equal conditions and gear. I'm assuming this means full Enkidu's and other basic gear (maybe not even Enkidu's, who knows). But I highly doubt the equal conditions are as equal as his post implies.

"Currently, the only time a good geared dnc will be out-wsed by a good thf is if the thf has the opportunity to stack both SA and TA."
(quotes don't work sometimes)

A THF with SA alone shouldn't get out WS'd by a DNC; maybe not even with TA alone. And my THF and DNC use the same dagger (Kartika); plus I'd consider my DNC to be above average while my THF is below average.

From my experience during the Kartika trials (namely the 400 arcana), my THF out WS'd my DNC despite having used Building Flourish and food on DNC only (meat/sushi, used it because I felt quite disappointed in my DE damage). Obviously THF didn't have SA. This is both using Renegade (27 DMG) mainhand, multi-hit weapon offhand, and both sub NIN. But of course, this is "eyeballed" damage again and means only as much as OP's account.

As for all the math, you act like DNC isn't using that extra 5% TP they make in the FIRST MINUTE of Saber Dance (assuming it really is 50%) for half a step. The following minutes before recast will be even less hits, but DNC is still using TP for a LEAST steps and samba. Furthermore, who fulltimes Saber Dance?

Does Saber Dance really give that much DA? I rarely ever used it because I never noticed its effect. Then someone from my LS asked me about DNC merits and maxing Saber Dance, so I popped it on and it proc'd only twice on a fight with a weapon (wasn't really paying attention to time, but I'm pretty sure I didn't kill it in four attack rounds lol).