Religion: If You Don't Believe In It Why Does It Bother You?

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2010/04/23/2010-04-23_milwaukee_lawsuit_against_pope_benedict_claims_catholic_church_covered_up_priest.html
ABOUT DAMN TIME!
hope that milwaukee guy wins and proves how corrupt the catholic church is and how much BS religion is.

You can't eliminate @ 100% the power abuse, and i do not think blame entire religion for it is right. First of all, priest should be allowed to have normal sex as everyone do, not hard to understand how they end to abuse kid.

I'm--uh... XD Oh, whatever.

Not that I have to explain myself, ^^; but I had just come to the point where my grades were dropping, and I had/have to start picking up where I left off--I did well during the beginning of the semester, but I lost steam right after that. I hate that ._. I'm a nerd but I have absolutely no passion for achievement or grades or EXP or whatever.... :(

Anyways, thanks for the respectful discussions regarding Christianity thus far, I'm glad a lot of civilized debate went on for a while--I always appreciate that much more than mindless flaming.

To respond to Psy, though--In my opinion, faith isn't something easily lost.... It's hard to explain, but it's something more deep set than just a belief in something. It sounds somewhat corny and irrational, but it's something I feel is more soul-felt than anything else.

That being said, I'll end this with something I've mentioned earlier in this thread:

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And yeah <_> I'm really bad at this.... I'm usually preoccupied with whatever's going on in my shell, so I get carried away and... ; ; whatever conversation that was left hanging for a few minutes usually gets swept away both in the chat log and in my mind >_<.... Lots of friends outside of my shell get kinda annoyed...^^;

All religions promise some kind of reward to your faith : eternal life, heaven, owning a planet (crazy Mormons lol) etc. and in order to help convince you that there's any value to seeking such ambitious, irrational and unprovable incentives, they need to convince you that, as an imperfect human, you are missing something (read Genesis) that only THEY can help you regain... that there is some kind of hole inside you that constantly needs to be refilled with faith, God and whatever... And the best way to make you feel empty like that... is ... you guessed it: to make you feel guilty.. guilty about sinning... And obviously, those sins happen to be the very things that humans need and crave on a daily basis.

No wonder SEX, of all things, is the biggest interdiction ever, in almost any successful religion ever thought of... lol

And the more fun-deprived and sex-deprived and guilty people are, the more they'll turn to God because its said to be the only way to rid them of this strange anxiety. Islam goes as far as hiding the women full-time and promising men some great sex if they participate in holy wars... I'm not even sure if we should be laughing, btw. On a more serious note about Islam: How many Muslims have I spoken to, who smoked cigarette (which is not permitted) and felt depressed about it, and it only led them into being more depressed. Now I don't think smoking or eating improperly cooked pork is particularly healthy, but if, as a Muslim, eating bacon or sharing a Corona with some hot hidjab-less Asian girl made me feel depressed about going to Hell, I think I'd be praying more instead of trying to make sense out of it.

In Catholicism (besides keeping the priests from getting any) forbidding sex before marriage was, for a long time, a very good way to keep people from feeling good with themselves until they'd finally get a mate. If they cheated, even better, because they'd feel more guilty anyway. And then, sex would only be for procreating, which would basically remove whatever enjoyment it's supposed to provide, not mentioning the burden that comes after.

Just look at other so-called sins, besides sex, in traditional religion, and you'll get what I mean. Not saying that killing is supposed to be enjoyable, but I think most of the "man-made" sins, I mean the ones that aren't obviously wrong even to an atheist, are there to help maintain you in a bad mood so that you'll keep feeling incomplete and in need of faith.

This is what I think of lolorganized Religion

I edited my post a little, adding a bit of text about Islam btw ... and I do apologize if some of my info on Islam is misleading. However, I am allowed, just as anyone, to be partly wrong and still state an opinion. I am willing to learn, and change my mind when shown new evidence, because... well that's what an atheist does... :)

Mabrook, I almost forgot you are a Muslim and well you're probably the only one following this thread and I applaud your effort to remain open-minded considering this is an atheist thread...

But since you're here, I need to tell you something about Islam. Religions need to be criticized, they deserve it, please don't run away from it. Religions do not have a special right to stay away from criticism, they actually, by claiming to set such high standards for morality, deserve more criticism than any other type of organization. As we speak, the biggest taboo is Islam, people got killed recently for writing a book and making a movie talking about it.

The point is not whether the movie or book were telling the truth. Nobody should die for writing a book, there is no way to rationalize that. Nowadays, saying anything about Islam is called being narrow-minded, intolerant, etc. But really... it's a big part of the problem. Because if a religion doesn't tolerate criticism, and teaches you to overreact whenever someone says anything bad about it, how can it possibly be called "peace"? Believing strongly about something doesn't prove anything, beside the strength of the belief, which I think is kind of pointless to prove.

Now, I am sure that you do not believe in Jihad and stuff like that. And most other religions don't kill people for their faith anymore either. However, it IS happening with Islam right now, because texts in the Qur'an are taken literally. Killing is done in the name of Allah and what bothers me is that the religious authorities do not openly condemn it and expel the murderers who are obviously insulting Allah by killing in his name. By letting these people stay Muslim aren't the leaders sinning as well? Is there no way the murderers could be expelled from Islam? Just as the Catholic church sinned by staying silent while knowing about the Holocaust, aren't they sinning too by staying silent in front of the murders? Whoever made fun of your Prophet, that person didn't deserve to die. The simple fact that Islam is trying to create and maintain critics into a fear of speaking out is immoral to me.

Did you know that in most if not all Muslim countries, the penalty for apostasy (leaving the faith) taught from early childhood, is death? How can it be healthy when you're not even supposed to question THAT kind of stuff? But whenever I speak to a Muslim about such "delicate" subjects, I get evasive answers, as if they're all scared to confront the intolerance going on. I've witnessed strong reactions for even trying to discuss about Islam. Whenever I'd answer anything that I honestly believed, I'd be disappointed at the generic and systematic replies. "It's not a religious issue, its just politics." When I look at a Muslim, I get the image of someone in denial... :/ Am I at least allowed to say it?

Did you know that, even though Muslims are 99% tolerant people, if they became a majority in a western country, they could democratically initiate Sharia and this alone would threaten our values? 10% tax for not being Muslim... Women losing the rights THEY fought to get, these same rights lots of Muslim men seem to think are somehow degrading to women. Would you vote against it if given a chance? These are the questions I like asking peaceful Muslims. They are too submissive to their religion and that alone is sufficient to frighten me about the rapid growth of Islam worldwide.

If you are willing to discuss, I am willing to learn. But please, no "generic answers". I need to know what you think. Certainly, as an individual, you must have your own personal opinions about these subjects. Don't be afraid to share.

1: A tricky question. But to answer it quickly would imply assuming that being religious or non religious determines the probability of someone being good or bad. Let me point first that, to a religious person, there are many religions but only one is good. So if you're going to try making me reason by comparing ALL non-believers to ALL believers, you're gonna be forced to admit that your specific beliefs aren't what's making it positive anyway, and that's kind of ironic...

I think that believing the world is coming to an end doesn't motivate us into improving life on Earth. I see life as precious, because I'm pretty damn sure if I waste it I won't get another one. If I were in a life-death situation, I wouldn't feel very reassured knowing that if things were to get too rough, my colleagues might actually let me die, thinking that I'll be doing okay in heaven anyway. I'd feel much safer next to a bunch of atheists.

Can an atheist be evil? Yes. I find that religious people love to find correlations everywhere and use them as supporting evidence. What is the correlation between being an atheist and being called Stalin? None whatsoever, because Stalin wasn't killing people in the name of Atheism. Unless you're willing to agree that because plane crashes have been decreasing, we should consider the decrease in phone calls made with landlines and give cellphone companies credit for saving lives, I can't understand why you'd try to demonstrate things by pointing at distant correlations between them.

2: A big chunk of America is Christian, so statistically, its probably them. Though, I have no way to back my statement and I do not believe crime rate statistics is a very efficient way to evaluate a country. For example, in Japan, crime rate is very low, but it's because people don't report crimes. I'm also against the idea of trying to justify anything by saying "hey, at least it's not as worse as the next..." I think your question should be: how many of those crimes were done in the name of religion, that would be a slightly more relevant correlation to point out (if it existed). But, really, these kind of statistics would be difficult to obtain and I don't think the tremendous amount of work it would require to compile would lead to anything particularly useful.

Still pretty busy, but I'll take the time for a quick quip.
Well, I know what you're leading into, Mabrook, but statistics are that most of the people in prison are religious, with a relatively low number of them being atheists. This may be because people who are affirmed atheists pride themselves on using intellect and logic over their instincts and feelings. A great many of us are actually deeply concerned with issues of ethics and morality, despite the "godless" label.

As for your second question, it's meaningless. Religions don't break laws, although quite a few of them urge followers to commit crimes if you read the fine print. Rather, people break laws. Although if you want to look up the statistics of religious demographics in prison, you'd get closer to the answer. And again, it's not atheists.

Anyway, can someone who does good only because they fear divine retribution truly be considered moral? Or is true morality found in the heart of one who does good things because they are good, regardless of punishment or reward?

I think the "you're preaching to the choir" argument we atheists often get when we try state our thoughts is completely invalid. I actually trust a lot of us, religious or not, have a great potential for debating and the world is not as doomed as most like to think it is, there's somehow a possibility for things to get better by discussing our differences. Thanks for helping me believe... ;)

Faith as you describe it, must be quite something. I'm not sure how you can go as far as saying it's MORE than a belief in something, though. If you can't define it, does it necessarily make it supernatural? To me, faith is sort of like elevating a set of beliefs into a virtue. To you, it seems like some kind of otherworldly sensation. I'd like to know what these neurology researchers have to say about this... Eventually, science will explain it... and religions will refute it... ^^;

About your somewhat "sporadic" presence, don't worry. Having other things to do isn't a sin. But it's always a pleasure to read your honest replies :)

@Mabrook

I do have the bad habit of correcting my text over and over so if you want to reread it feel free, and sorry about that ^^

There is what bothers me about religion in general: the beliefs that are incompatible with my thinking since an atheist questions and demands proofs. If God created us the way we are, he would give us a rational way to know he exists. Not force us to guess and make assumptions.

And then, there is what bothers me specifically about specific religions. It is true, as you pointed out with Islam, that major religions are always divided into branches that can't get along. We can even say "Abrahamic religions" are the main cause of war in the world. But that's like almost every religion out there except the Asian ones lol ... Same as the Protestants claiming to be the real Christians, and then they're divided in 100 other sub-branches hehe

What's difficult is when you have a problem with a group, in this case, a religion, you are really blaming an entity. And everyone can just say "hey, it's not me it's him". Basically, that group is hiding by blaming the other members for being the bad ones. A body of people doesn't really appear possible to target. In the end, I will disagree with a religion, but with who am I even disagreeing if no one will accept to take responsibility? :P

As for Muslim becoming a majority... believe it or not, it is happening... perhaps not the USA, but its threatening people and analysis shows that it may become real in a few decades, again, not necessarily in the USA. In fact, the guy who got killed for the Muhammad cartoon lives in the country where its happening: Sweden. If someone inside Islam makes fun of the Prophet and get killed, that's one thing. But this guy wasn't even a Muslim. What, besides some interpretations of Sharia, entitles a religion to kill a non-believer who doesn't take the religion seriously in the first place? Isn't that kind of pretentious? This is something I'll never be able to agree with because I do not even think religion is based on something real. At least, in the point of view of an atheist, it's almost like dealing with a psycho who doesn't want you to comment on his imaginary friend... o.O;

As for Sharia... it does have some nasty bits... such as paying extra taxes if you're a non-Muslim, I mean come on lol... You guys have to fix these things because they're not compatible with the modern world we live in. Religion will survive only by adapting and taking it's place. It should never be about control.

About the prejudice, I know what it feels like. For some weird reason, I was the only white child in my school. I'm Canadian, but I ended up in a pretty "unique" school. My parents wanted me to learn objectivity. But this can only make you stronger, if you react to it properly. I'm not saying you should have stronger faith, faith should be questioned. But as a person, you'll certainly become stronger and learn to deal with issues in a way that could actually help the middle east.

As for the Palestine issue, it's very hard to know what to think. There are Palestinians being kicked out of their houses and bulldozers destroying houses every-time the people try to rebuild them and anyone who reads from other sources than the American mainstream media knows about it. Israel, even when it pretends to be trying, is in a weird position and their political decisions are too often ambiguous. On the other side, Saudi Arabia is basically fueling the conflict and its pretty clear that many countries around Israel want it to disappear. In the place of Israel, I'd get paranoid pretty quickly. I mean, experts are pulling their hair trying to understand the situation over there so I don't think I have the required knowledge to fully understand it. What I can tell is that the conflict over there is a great example of religion gone WRONG...

Thanks for the input and sorry if I wasn't able to cover everything you said, you can always point out to the things you wrote that you would like me to reply to specificaly. I'll check the thread when I can! Good night my friend ^^

@malbrook


I am not muslim and agree, but from now on in debates like this. With low IQed idiots like the post above me, I also excuse Ayane and the smarter not HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE people. From now on I stay neutral, and from this my true thoughts on knowledge on such matters sealed.

lol, this kind of reminded me of the book "1984" with the Ministry of Peace.

I just don't see how people can look at Muhammad and think he's the ideal role model for men. He killed his way into power, held a high status of 20 wives(while commanding others to only have up to 4 wives), and married Aishe(a 9 year-old). I'm not a Christian, but comparing this to Jesus... A man who never killed anyone, who surrounded himself with the outcasts of society and welcomed them while everyone else looked down on them, and courageously taught peace(even if it meant losing his own life).

By the way, Muhammad is only a role model for men, as women are incapable of following his teachings. However, Jesus's teachings can be followed by anyone, be it man, woman, child, or elder.

"Belief in a cruel god makes a cruel man." - Thomas Paine (1737-1809)

Let's take a quick gander at the Bukhari Book 2, Volume 23, Hadith 413...

"The Jew brought to the Prophet a man and a woman from amongst them who have committed (adultery) illegal sexual intercourse. He ordered both of them to be stoned (to death), near the place of offering the funeral prayers beside the mosque."

And if you refuse to take from anything but the Qu'ran), explain to me the reasoning of Surah 9:5.


So, you're telling me that due to Sharia law, Muslim countries are more ethical than America? I know of several Islamic countries that would be considered the extreme opposite of this "sex craved America". American medias are heavy on sex, it's a big seller, and what people want to read or see on TV. You could grudge up news about spouses killing each other over sex scandals, however, you can also grudge up news stories about girls getting raped(in countries that enforce Sharia law) and promptly be put to death(by an archaic penalty such as stoning) for losing their virginity. lol, you decide which is more socially acceptable.

And that yashmacs are important for keeping the purity of your wife? You realize that women have urges for physically attractive men as well, right? Why not have men wear yashmacs as well? I'm not bashing your faith, I'm just curious what your reasons are for following something I consider to be quite absurd. In fact, I wouldn't be studying it so much if I didn't find an interest in it.

On a separate note, I'd also like to ask a few questions of the Qu'ran. If you can, please cite sources from the Qu'ran as evidence for your answers.

Who was the first Muslim?

Can angels disobey Allah?

What was man created from?

I have more, but would like to see your answers to these.

this thread is still going? wow...

Well, let's take a look at the situation. You have a prophet(Muhammad) who is clearly male as he has 20 wives. This prophet is supposed to be the role model for all Muslims. How can a woman follow this role model without contradicting other Islamic beliefs that a woman should have no more than one husband?

Now, on the Christian side of things(again, I'm not a Christian, but just showing a point), you have an essentially androgenous person teaching morals for people(not just men). The Bible doesn't emphasis his masculinity, but often times points out many (what some could consider) female reactions to things. The shortest passage of the Bible is in fact, "Jesus wept." Can Jesus be a role model for women and men without coming up with major contradictions on how they should live their lives?

Great, a poster with no contribution to the thread. Never seen that before.

Jesus died for your sins OP, you need to accept him into your heart and you will understand everything.

You haven't accepted him so you don't know the joys and wonders of believing, if you would just give him a chance he will show you the true way and you will get to be with him forever in heavens.