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Religion: If you don't believe in it why does it bother you?
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By Bismarck.Bigheadkitty 2010-04-12 12:52:41
Caitsith.Neonracer said: Bismarck.Bigheadkitty said: Carbuncle.Sevourn said: Bismarck.Bigheadkitty said: Lmao sev but we werent here the entire time, the dome will eb a scientific experiment to prove once and for all. Maybe we should keep cameras on it too but that eb a alot of data to store;) I guess we also should make sure noone can get in or out of said dome cuase then a god or an alien could corrupt the experiment. And thers 6.8 billion or so of us nutbags loose on this planet now. but wat if god mde a dude n thr just cuz he wantd u 2 B wrong tho LMFAO then thats one tricky dude. Remeber iM the nutjob who sees thats it statistically more probable that we were seeded by an alien race than to have evolved from a single cell organism. But where did the aliens come from? If there is a god who amde him. Where did all the material to fuel the bigbang come from and who or what created that or what bang preceeede that. Im confused now but at least questions like that fuel the minds of people all over the globe in what hopefully leads to great advancemnets in all areas of science. I really enjoy reading your threads Bighead....you sir certianly show that sarcasm is a subtle way of making making a lil laughter to this subject. Certianly makes me feel that not all of us need to be serious THINKERS to invigorate a topic!
Do I detect a hint of sarcasm;) Im gonna bump a few others I posted way back on page 11 to get the ball rolling again.
 Caitsith.Neonracer
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By Caitsith.Neonracer 2010-04-12 13:44:57
Caitsith.Linear said: Asura.Jetzabel said: Then you are missing the underlying issue: Humans do bad stuff. If it wasn't religion, humans would find any other number of reasons to kill each other. OP would have us all believe that without religion, we'd all be living in a high class utopia where violence and evil does not exist. Hahahaha... yeah....
This kinda goes back to the original form of your quote. Yeah, people do the deed in the end, but the gun makes is sooo much easier. A gun makes the kill much less personal, so it's easier on the conscious because it wasn't done with their own hands (to an extent, anyway).
It's the same with religions. There's less guilt because they can make themselves beleive it's their gods will, or interpret their religions chronicles as they see fit.
As for the utopia? I'll agree, it's not going to happen. High class though.. Depends on what you mean. We would certainly be more technologically advanced. While maybe not as bad as that chart a few pages back, it most definately brought advancement to a grinding halt for quite some time.
I really like what You and Jetz had to add Linnear, I mean take a look at right now...what Mabrook and I were mentioning.. I would love for all of us to continue this, but have all all four of us brought into as one discussion...
Let's use well Bin Laden as a perfect example since he sticks out like a sore thumb... him and the Al-keida are belivers in the Qu-ran or Koran( Unsure which religion or if its the same, b/c of Middle-East translation of views or spelling..thought it was the same) use the ideal view like, using their god as a mean to instill fear or purify the World... ( almost sounds like Nazi-Hitler Regime back in 1939-43 pre-WW2 era) ..an ethnic cleansing of the sort.
Now I do not claim I know anything of the middle-east religion, I don't, but by going by what I see, either it be majority of global broadcasts, or by personal interpretation or a mixture by both, this is how I see it... going back to what both of you were talking about back there...
Caitsith.Linear.Asura.Jetzabel said: It's the same with religions. There's less guilt because they can make themselves beleive it's their gods will, or interpret their religions chronicles as they see fit.
Definate probable cause here. You can see it as we have already lived it. Hijackers using Airplanes as acts of violence with post 9:11 in US. Its even in todays storys about Canadian Troops being wiped out by I.U.D's in Afghanistan.
I read on http://www.sympatico.ca/ every morning, just waiting to see if another Canadian has been killed by AL-keida or any militant group over in Middle East.
We may have been Peace keepers in Slavic and Balkan countries and it might have been prooven successful, but bringing peace to middle east.. we really need to get our heads out of this. Why should we be interferring with such biblical text? I know that we are about saving lives.. but we are not supermen to save this country. We just keep doing what we can, but at what price?
Sorry if I'm going on a rant.. I'm about to step outside..so please continue this thought...
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By Bismarck.Bigheadkitty 2010-04-12 15:18:17
As for Bin Laden I think he more or less uses Islam as a recruiting tool for a war hes really fighting as a personal grudge match against the US. Im sure that in his head the Christianty-Islam battle plays a role, but the fact that he and his fighters were hung out to dry when we no longer needed them for a proxy war to annoy the russians, probably is the main reason. Damn this may start a political thread, oh no what have I done! probably would have never happened if AL Gore were president but then again wed all be paying a 99% tax on evrything to pay for his crusade on global warming.
I guess in a round about way the point is that people will use anything as a scapegoat for their actions be it relegion or be it a politician seeking a so called greater good.
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By Caitsith.Neonracer 2010-04-12 19:08:58
Lakshmi.Mabrook said: Pandemonium.Spicyryan said: the dark ages, crusades, jihads, inquisition, witch hunts, holocaust, and so on happened! You know, the Quran says absolutely nothing of a holy war between Humans; Except the day when the world ends there will be >Major< and >Minor< signs... The True war will be between Devil(with Humans) vs. God.
Keep in mind 1 day in Heaven is like 1000 human years, so no one will ever know when the day of judgement will come.
Wow that reminds me of the 2012 movie.. The earthquakes.. sun rising in the west instead of the East... total shift in the earth's rotation???
That's Heavy!!!
 Ragnarok.Anye
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By Ragnarok.Anye 2010-04-12 19:17:15
Pandemonium.Spicyryan said: Ragnarok.Anye said: Ragnarok.Anye said: Where the issue lies is humanity itself. We seek identity--identity through our friends, through the way we dress, our gender, our race, our culture, our nation, to name a few.
Culture isn't such a bad thing. It's not like the intention was to cause prejudice and narrow-mindedness, at least.
What gives it the negative connotation you infer, is when one decides that one's culture--one's identity, oneself--places them above all others. It's what gives the entire argument of "religion" its fuel.
And then the dark ages, crusades, jihads, inquisition, witch hunts, holocaust, and so on happened!
Still never answered the riddle I passed on to you Anye. Pandemonium.Spicyryan said: Anyway Anye I have riddle from everyone's favorite Greek philosopher, Epicurus.
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" I believe he is both able and willing. In regards to that, then: Quote: 2 Peter 3:8-9:
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
Caitsith.Neonracer
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By Caitsith.Neonracer 2010-04-12 19:19:23
Ragnarok.Anye said: Pandemonium.Spicyryan said: Ragnarok.Anye said: Ragnarok.Anye said: Where the issue lies is humanity itself. We seek identity--identity through our friends, through the way we dress, our gender, our race, our culture, our nation, to name a few.
Culture isn't such a bad thing. It's not like the intention was to cause prejudice and narrow-mindedness, at least.
What gives it the negative connotation you infer, is when one decides that one's culture--one's identity, oneself--places them above all others. It's what gives the entire argument of "religion" its fuel.
And then the dark ages, crusades, jihads, inquisition, witch hunts, holocaust, and so on happened!
Still never answered the riddle I passed on to you Anye. Pandemonium.Spicyryan said: Anyway Anye I have riddle from everyone's favorite Greek philosopher, Epicurus.
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" I believe he is both able and willing. In regards to that, then: Quote: 2 Peter 3:8-9:
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
Spiceyran, Ask and you shall recieve! Nice Anye!
 Lakshmi.JaerikAdministrator
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By Lakshmi.Jaerik 2010-04-12 19:30:23
Question:
If you argue that any moral transgressions of religious folks can all be dismissed as a failure of the individual and not the institution, what's the added value of the institution?
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By Lakshmi.Jaerik 2010-04-12 19:47:49
Lakshmi.Mabrook said: If we live by chance and random selection then why not end it? We are only but a dust of an atom compared to the universe.
That's like arguing there's no point in playing FF11 because ultimately, it's all based off a random number generator.
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By Lakshmi.Jaerik 2010-04-12 19:58:37
Another question.
Which is more quantifiably arrogant:
- Assuming there is nothing eternally beyond the capacity of our comprehension?
or
- Assuming whatever is beyond that comprehension is intimately concerned with our welfare?
Leviathan.Narrubia
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By Leviathan.Narrubia 2010-04-12 20:03:42
Lakshmi.Jaerik said: Another question.
Which is more quantifiably arrogant:
- Assuming there is nothing eternally beyond the capacity of our comprehension?
or
- Assuming whatever is beyond that comprehension is intimately concerned with our welfare? Wouldn't both be equally arrogant, as they both are simply assuming knowledge about something that, by it's definition, one cannot comprehend?
Caitsith.Blurr
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By Caitsith.Blurr 2010-04-12 20:11:26
are you saying..
if you dont necessarily believe in higher powers that we can not see or comprehend, your arrogant by some measure ?
Sylph.Sindri
By Sylph.Sindri 2010-04-12 20:32:48
Lakshmi.Jaerik said: Another question.
Which is more quantifiably arrogant:
- Assuming there is nothing eternally beyond the capacity of our comprehension?
or
- Assuming whatever is beyond that comprehension is intimately concerned with our welfare?
2nd one
Leviathan.Narrubia
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By Leviathan.Narrubia 2010-04-12 20:34:20
Caitsith.Blurr said: are you saying..
if you dont necessarily believe in higher powers that we can not see or comprehend, your arrogant by some measure ? Without fallibility, yes. Assuming any knowledge of the existence or nature of the inherently incomprehensible is what I would argue is arrogance. Basing one's actions off an assumption that no such incomprehensible element exists, as long as there is no contradicting evidence, is secularism, which I would argue is not arrogant, nor is holding the belief of the existence/nonexistence of such an incomprehensible with the knowledge that your belief system is fallible.
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By Bismarck.Bigheadkitty 2010-04-12 20:49:26
Below is all the proof we need that there is a god and he loves us!
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By Bismarck.Bigheadkitty 2010-04-12 21:33:54
I believe a popular theory on deja vu si that your brain is sorting memories and puttign them in a beter place sort of like defragging yuor HD. And during the process you dreamed about a plausible chain of events very similar to what actually happens to you amkeing them seem the same. I think thats the best case full of cheer scenario. I would say the absolute worst case is that we are preprogrammed and evrything that we do in life is going to happen regardless of how hard we try to change it. In that case yuo see a glimpse of a true future event due to a glitch in the predetermined routine. If thats the case than it really really blows and kind of ruins your day.
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By Sylph.Andros 2010-04-12 21:55:14
Pandemonium.Kajidourden said: Triplesix70 said: Hades.Excelior said: There are more people in this world than just you and your family. I don't think I can take anymore idiots like Bill Maher preaching how religion is stupid. Religion is a means for people to justify their otherwise meaningless life. Maybe you would be comfortable with a nihilistic view of everything but I would say the majority of people are not. President Bush isnt religious. He used it as a way to get elected just how Barack Obama lied to everyone too. I seriously doubt many world powers use religion to direct their actions. Beliefs don't keep anyone from evolving. Ignorance does. Morality and religion are not the same however it has always been the basis of our fundamental laws. I'm not sure mankind would reach the conclusion its not right to steal or kill if most of the people weren't afraid of the consequences.
Well said!
If your life is menaingless without religion in your opinion, the world is better off without you.
Wow, Kaji... Really? How would you know? Who are you to judge whether or not the world is better off without someone. It's this type of ignorance and apathetic a*&hole view that is the REAL problem in the world. If no one was apathetic, selfish, and we all gave a d*mn about others (regardless of religious status, race, sexual orientation, etc) this world would be the closest thing you could get to a utopia.
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By Fairy.Cailleach 2010-04-12 22:27:35
I live my life according to what the flying spaghetti monster tells me to do.
....you don't wanna know what he's saying about you either....
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Odin.Liela
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By Odin.Liela 2010-04-12 22:53:59
I'm sure I do dream, everyone does. But I almost never remember them. The ones I do remember are ridiculous, like dreaming the sword-wielding squirrels took over Cuba and stuff like that. :-( I am a dream-dork. If dreams are God's way of talking to us, he's gonna have to help me remember them and make their meaning a bit more obvious.
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 Ramuh.Dasva
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By Ramuh.Dasva 2010-04-12 22:56:47
Odin.Liela said: I'm sure I do dream, everyone does. But I almost never remember them. The ones I do remember are ridiculous, like dreaming the sword-wielding squirrels took over Cuba and stuff like that. :-( I am a dream-dork. If dreams are God's way of talking to us, he's gonna have to help me remember them and make their meaning a bit more obvious. Omg I love dreams like that. I used to have one where a mutated chuck E cheese was chasing me. Like he was more of a rat. Kept having it.... maybe god was trying to tell me that rats cause the plague and to run away!
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Ragnarok.Anye
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By Ragnarok.Anye 2010-04-12 23:29:12
Lakshmi.Jaerik said: Question:
If you argue that any moral transgressions of religious folks can all be dismissed as a failure of the individual and not the institution, what's the added value of the institution? Objectively speaking, to be at peace with the facet of truth to which one is exposed.
Subjectively speaking as a Christian, to attempt to express the love I've come to understand in the Bible.
Lakshmi.Jaerik said: Another question.
Which is more quantifiably arrogant:
- Assuming there is nothing eternally beyond the capacity of our comprehension?
or
- Assuming whatever is beyond that comprehension is intimately concerned with our welfare? XD Nice choice of wording; literally speaking, it would be the latter, simply because it is a focus on self-importance.
The superficial view on Christianity is the belief that one must "have faith in Christ to gain eternal life"--often implying that the salvific aspect of Christianity indicates a Christian-centric foundation. In other words, it's often implied that the point of Christianity is for the Christian to go to heaven. Instead, it is the continuous realization that it is for God's sake that we are loved, and we devote our lives to expressing that love. Quote: Isaiah 43:25; 48:9, 11
"I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more.... For my own name's sake I delay my wrath, for the sake of my praise I hold it back from you, so as not to cut you off.... For my own sake, for my own sake, I do this. How can I let myself be defamed? I will not yield my glory to another."
Isaiah 53:4-5
Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.
1 John 4:10-11
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.
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By Bismarck.Bigheadkitty 2010-04-12 23:30:01
Pandemonium.Spicyryan said: Ragnarok.Anye said: Pandemonium.Spicyryan said: Ragnarok.Anye said: Ragnarok.Anye said: Where the issue lies is humanity itself. We seek identity--identity through our friends, through the way we dress, our gender, our race, our culture, our nation, to name a few. Culture isn't such a bad thing. It's not like the intention was to cause prejudice and narrow-mindedness, at least. What gives it the negative connotation you infer, is when one decides that one's culture--one's identity, oneself--places them above all others. It's what gives the entire argument of "religion" its fuel. And then the dark ages, crusades, jihads, inquisition, witch hunts, holocaust, and so on happened! Still never answered the riddle I passed on to you Anye. Pandemonium.Spicyryan said: Anyway Anye I have riddle from everyone's favorite Greek philosopher, Epicurus. "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" I believe he is both able and willing. In regards to that, then: Quote: 2 Peter 3:8-9: But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. Pandemonium.Spicyryan said: "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" Then whence cometh the evil?Then where does the evil come from? I could never imagine the idea of worshiping an *** like that who let those suffer something like a genocide and is the creator of all the evil that harms others. That passage is a horrible attempt at a loophole (then again I guess god have infinite loop holes because he is god huh?) it pretty much only confirms he is willing to let evil transpire as he feels. All powerful and all loving sometimes loving. Caitsith.Neonracer said: Spiceyran, Ask and you shall recieve! Nice Anye! What is nice about this? Please enlighten me. Sylph.Andros said: Pandemonium.Kajidourden said: Triplesix70 said: Hades.Excelior said: There are more people in this world than just you and your family. I don't think I can take anymore idiots like Bill Maher preaching how religion is stupid. Religion is a means for people to justify their otherwise meaningless life. Maybe you would be comfortable with a nihilistic view of everything but I would say the majority of people are not. President Bush isnt religious. He used it as a way to get elected just how Barack Obama lied to everyone too. I seriously doubt many world powers use religion to direct their actions. Beliefs don't keep anyone from evolving. Ignorance does. Morality and religion are not the same however it has always been the basis of our fundamental laws. I'm not sure mankind would reach the conclusion its not right to steal or kill if most of the people weren't afraid of the consequences. Well said! If your life is menaingless without religion in your opinion, the world is better off without you. Wow, Kaji... Really? How would you know? Who are you to judge whether or not the world is better off without someone. It's this type of ignorance and apathetic a*&hole view that is the REAL problem in the world. If no one was apathetic, selfish, and we all gave a d*mn about others (regardless of religious status, race, sexual orientation, etc) this world would be the closest thing you could get to a utopia. Is the world better with out the person? In such a state, they certainly will not be helping, but that is not to say they are not allowed to live. No one can decide who has a right to live and does not. As for the Obama comment, no one knows such, but it would not be so unsafe to assume for him that is the case. When to comes to a countries direction, since the laws are not made by the executive branch it is partially led by religious decisions. IE federal funding for abortion or abortion in genreal. Tell me most of the people against abortion are going to say why as a reason? Go on take a guess, it is really easy.
Man this is a long requote!
A religous person would say God for the answer to abortions but a person such as myself who isnt would say once there is a heartbeat its a living person. I cant kill an adult with a heartbeat because they are unwanted so killign an unborn baby with a heartbeat is the same in my book.
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By Lakshmi.Jaerik 2010-04-12 23:42:24
Agnosticism is based on the assertion that you can't prove god exists, but you also can't prove that he doesn't. Thus, you entertain the possibility of either in equal measure. However, this is a false logical equivalence:
- If I tell you "I have a dragon in my garage," you assume I do not until I prove otherwise.
- If I tell you "I don't have a dragon in my garage," you do not assume I do until I prove otherwise.
This is a basic limitation of logical inversion that we all viscerally understand. Why do we throw it out when discussing religion? Why are we willing to say that by nature of being unprovable, atheism is just as much a religion as any other? Atheism is no more a religion than not playing chess is a hobby.
Atheism and theism are not equivalent positive assertions in opposition to one another any more than the second dragon scenario is the logical inversion of the first. In other words, there is no need for me to prove Anye "wrong," and I have no intention of trying.
Agnosticism tends to spring from the implied acceptance of this logical fallacy, usually coupled with the desire to avoid any potential social ramifications of the perceived false opposition by seeking the illusion of an intermediate "ground" state. In actuality, there is no need.
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By Ragnarok.Anye 2010-04-12 23:51:33
Pandemonium.Spicyryan said: Ragnarok.Anye said: Pandemonium.Spicyryan said: Anyway Anye I have riddle from everyone's favorite Greek philosopher, Epicurus.
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" I believe he is both able and willing. In regards to that, then: Quote: 2 Peter 3:8-9:
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. Then whence cometh the evil?Then where does the evil come from? I could never imagine the idea of worshiping an *** like that who let those suffer something like a genocide and is the creator of all the evil that harms others.
That passage is a horrible attempt at a loophole (then again I guess god have infinite loop holes because he is god huh?) it pretty much only confirms he is willing to let evil transpire as he feels. All powerful and all loving sometimes loving. You're thinking within the perspective that physical death is the ultimatum of all suffering. If you want to talk within the Christian perspective, then that verse is in regards to salvation from spiritual death--spiritual separation from God.
Quote: Ezekiel 18:23
"Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked?" declares the Sovereign Lord. "Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?"
The origin of evil in the Christian sense, is from God, in that he created man with a choice to either follow what He has ordained or not. To not follow what God ordained is considered evil in the eyes of God. But the true loophole of it all is Christ himself: Quote: Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
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By Bismarck.Bigheadkitty 2010-04-12 23:52:36
Lakshmi.Jaerik said: Agnosticism is based on the assertion that you can't prove god exists, but you also can't prove that he doesn't. Thus, you entertain the possibility of either in equal measure. However, this is a false logical equivalence:
- If I tell you "I have a dragon in my garage," you assume I do not until I prove otherwise.
- If I tell you "I don't have a dragon in my garage," you do not assume I do until I prove otherwise.
This is a basic limitation of logical inversion that we all viscerally understand. Why do we throw it out when discussing religion? Why are we willing to say that by nature of being unprovable, atheism is just as much a religion as any other? Atheism is no more a religion than not playing chess is a hobby.
Atheism and theism are not equivalent positive assertions in opposition to one another any more than the second dragon scenario is the logical inversion of the first. In other words, there is no need for me to prove Anye "wrong," and I have no intention of trying.
Agnosticism tends to spring from the implied acceptance of this logical fallacy, usually coupled with the desire to avoid any potential social ramifications of the perceived false opposition by seeking the illusion of an intermediate "ground" state. In actuality, there is no need.
Get the komodo dragon out of your garage and you better like to play chess. God is gonan *** you uppppppppp!!!
JK please dont ban my account because its cool to get on here when Im bored;)
Because it affects my life. That's the reason it bothers me. I wish for the demise of several organizations that I feel are destructive to me, my family, my friends and human evolution in general. Almost all countries in the world are ruled by religious people who, more than often, base their decisions on outdated beliefs rather than secular moral standards such as basic human rights, global awareness, tolerance towards difference and a genuine pursuit of peace.
That, my friend, is anything but reassuring.
Rationalists, those who chose, out of simple logic, not to believe in something supernatural, need to state their opinion, proudly and coherently. They need to have a place in society and politics, to be heard and to at least have a word on what the future's going to look like. Something as serious as the occupation of Iraq (close to 100000 have died in it) could probably have been avoided. If it wasn't for the fact that so many US voters based their vote on Bush's claim to have strong religious beliefs, rather than nonviolent ideologies, less people would be dead today.
Beliefs keep us from evolving because of what they are: Suppositions that were turned into artificial facts by irrational, although well intentioned people. The scientific approach goes in contradiction with the religious approach. I will show you that I have a baseball to prove that I own one. Instead, a religious person will dare you to prove that he doesn't have a baseball and your failing to demonstrate that he doesn't own one will make him feel justified.
Doubt, the very basis of knowledge: Doubt is the only way to keep our mind from falling into what I like to describe as "lazy mode". Doubt requires constant re-questioning of our assumptions and becomes harder as we grow old. We have to constantly remind ourselves that what we think we know... might be wrong.
Religions fundamentally discourage questioning; even when they pretend to do, they do it in a hypocritical way that discourages questioning even the relevance of believing. Oppositely, Science has, over the centuries, been re-evaluated from scratch, in the noble attempt to find some provable truths. Small truths, yes, but significant ones. The first scientists obviously believed in God; now, most don't.
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